Having a belief

[luckyme]

Ok, I'm ready to tackle this again.
We use the phrase, " I have a belief" and we tend to regard it as " I have a toe".
My understanding of mind is that, unlike the toe, the belief isn't there when we don't probe for it. There isn't a file somewhere in the brain that has belief X encoded on it. There isn't a fragged group of file parts that add up to belief X. Rather, beliefs are an emergent type of experience that manifests itself in response to a probe.

To bunny - I won't say I know this or believe this, it's just a view of the situation that I have.

Tear away, luckyme

[Philo]

There's a lot to untangle here.

First off, a toe is a physical part of the body, and I don't think we tend to regard having a belief "that p" as having a certain physical part of the body that is the belief that p. If there is more to the analogy perhaps you could explain.

Philosophers typically treat beliefs as propositional attitudes, i.e., if I believe "that p" for some proposition p this means that I think the proposition p is true.

Your description of beliefs as "an emergent type of experience that manifests itself in response to a probe" sounds a little invasive, but seems to be akin to a dispositional account of beliefs. We can distinguish between occurrent and dispositional beliefs. An occurrent belief is a belief that I am currently consciously entertaining, while a dispositional belief that p is understood as my disposition, say, to assent to the claim p.

The further question you raise about the relationship between the mind and the brain is of course a complex topic.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm ready to tackle this again.
We use the phrase, " I have a belief" and we tend to regard it as " I have a toe".
My understanding of mind is that, unlike the toe, the belief isn't there when we don't probe for it. There isn't a file somewhere in the brain that has belief X encoded on it. There isn't a fragged group of file parts that add up to belief X. Rather, beliefs are an emergent type of experience that manifests itself in response to a probe.

To bunny - I won't say I know this or believe this, it's just a view of the situation that I have.

Tear away, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]
How about if the belief is something like:

A propensity to answer "yes" to the question "Do you believe <insert-statement-here>?" - you have that propensity whether someone has asked you or not or even whether you've considered it or are aware of it.

[foal]

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A propensity to answer "yes" to the question "Do you believe <insert-statement-here>?

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Very easily counter-example-able and clearly not what we mean by belief. Don't you know B.F. Skinner is dead?

[bunny]

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A propensity to answer "yes" to the question "Do you believe <insert-statement-here>?

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Very easily counter-example-able and clearly not what we mean by belief. Don't you know B.F. Skinner is dead?

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Well, it's not what I mean - I was merely groping for some alternative. I'd appreciate a counter example though.

[foal]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A propensity to answer "yes" to the question "Do you believe <insert-statement-here>?

[/ QUOTE ]
Very easily counter-example-able and clearly not what we mean by belief. Don't you know B.F. Skinner is dead?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's not what I mean - I was merely groping for some alternative. I'd appreciate a counter example though.

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A counter example would be an atheist who lived in a theocracy and always said "yes" when asked "Do you believe in God?" for the sake of self-preservation. Or anyone who simply feels like lying.

[bunny]

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[ QUOTE ]

A propensity to answer "yes" to the question "Do you believe <insert-statement-here>?

[/ QUOTE ]
Very easily counter-example-able and clearly not what we mean by belief. Don't you know B.F. Skinner is dead?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's not what I mean - I was merely groping for some alternative. I'd appreciate a counter example though.

[/ QUOTE ]
A counter example would be an atheist who lived in a theocracy and always said "yes" when asked "Do you believe in God?" for the sake of self-preservation. Or anyone who simply feels like lying.

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Well sure - I did say "something like" and intended it to be someone who answered honestly (perhaps more what they would say to themselves if they considered the question).

Is there a counter-example to that sort of phrasing? (I expect there probably is, I've just never thought about belief like that before).

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
How about if the belief is something like:

A propensity to answer "yes" to the question "Do you believe <insert-statement-here>?" - you have that propensity whether someone has asked you or not or even whether you've considered it or are aware of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

An old phonograph record reacts a bit like that. The sound is produced when the needle is dragged through the groove but in a sense the music is always there.
The view on beliefs I'm considering is that they aren't there, they are pulled together from a sources much more scattered and finer grained. That's one reason we get different answers to 'do you belief that?" or "what do you believe about ..". It's one reason people always can surprise you, and themselves at times.

I don't think we have a spot or a series of spots where the belief "the earth is a sphere" is stored. If we could watch the neuron level as the response comes, could we go in an erase that belief by, say, killing off the nodes. I suspect we'd find two things if we tried that -
1) the response may still be available.
2) other responses will be affected.

That would seem to be the result if we 'build' our answer each time we're asked rather than have it labeled and cataloged in some way ( even a scatterd way).

luckyme

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
An old phonograph record reacts a bit like that. The sound is produced when the needle is dragged through the groove but in a sense the music is always there.

The view on beliefs I'm considering is that they aren't there, they are pulled together from a sources much more scattered and finer grained. That's one reason we get different answers to 'do you belief that?" or "what do you believe about ..". It's one reason people always can surprise you, and themselves at times.

I don't think we have a spot or a series of spots where the belief "the earth is a sphere" is stored. If we could watch the neuron level as the response comes, could we go in an erase that belief by, say, killing off the nodes. I suspect we'd find two things if we tried that -
1) the response may still be available.
2) other responses will be affected.

That would seem to be the result if we 'build' our answer each time we're asked rather than have it labeled and cataloged in some way ( even a scatterd way).

luckyme

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I dont think there is one spot the belief is stored either (I think our memory and other cognitive functions are decidedly different from a phonograph or even a computer) however I dont think that is necessary for the definition of belief I am waving in the direction of.

I think the tendency to act in a certain way is present before you are asked the question. If you and I are both going to answer yes to "Do you think vertebrates all share one common ancestor?" then I think we have something in common, even before we are asked.

I think what we have in common is the belief that vertebrates all share one common ancestor. The fact we havent yet gone through the process of considering the meaning of the question, consulting our past experiences, biases and other "propensities to answer yes" doesnt alter that.

[luckyme]

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I dont think there is one spot the belief is stored either (I think our memory and other cognitive functions are decidedly different from a phonograph or even a computer) however I dont think that is necessary for the definition of belief I am waving in the direction of.

I think the tendency to act in a certain way is present before you are asked the question. If you and I are both going to answer yes to "Do you think vertebrates all share one common ancestor?" then I think we have something in common, even before we are asked.

I think what we have in common is the belief that vertebrates all share one common ancestor. The fact we havent yet gone through the process of considering the meaning of the question, consulting our past experiences, biases and other "propensities to answer yes" doesnt alter that.

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We may both answer 'yes' last sunday morning. Events occur during the week and we have no other thoughts on the matter. Then when questioned this sunday morning you still answer yes but I answer no.
When did my belief change?
Taraz mentioned memory, and I think it is a good analogy or even related. You may ask, "do you remember that red-headed girl in school?" and I answer "yes".
My view is that the question I answered was, "Can you remember ..." since I didn't actually have a memory of her until it was fished out of the flotsam and jetsam in here. I created that memory, just now, which is why they are so often flawed.

Other than curiosity and a general desire to understand how our minds work there is a practical reason for thinking this through. If we are trying to change a person's view on a topic, the way to do it would be to not force the 'belief' to the surface but to work around the edges...rather like a wife may do, but more subtle. Then what may happen will be like that week above, the underpinnings of the belief slowly morphed during the week and then when it was probed for on Sunday morning, it is found different than the week prior.

That tactic is well known and the conjured-up view of beliefs fits that experience.

ok, put fingers in holes and pull, luckyme