I am bad at playing AJs ... easily my worst hand

[baltostar]

I have serious problems playing AJs in deep-stacked early tournament play. Specifically:

(1) when I haven't been getting cards for awhile and I have AJs in EP and I'm first to act

(2) when I'm in MP or LP or blinds with AJs against 2-5x BB raiser

In (1) I find it hard to limp since I probably have the best Ax dealt that hand. And if I limp I have a hard time folding to a single 2-5x BB raiser. Subsequently, I can not devise a good strategy for flop play if the A hits but not the J, or neither hits and no FD.

In (2), I don't think it's EV+ to re-raise (haven't run #s but that's my gut) and I find it hard to fold a hand which can hit the flop hard.

Is AJs a hand which one should look to see flops as cheaply as possible (up to say 5x BB) but lay-down easily if don't hit one of following: TPTK, 2P, trips, FD, and maybe Broadway draw ?

Interestingly, I don't have a problem in either (1) or (2) with AJo. I'll insta-fold it.

[erocplayer]

any offsuit hand that you're instafolding should probably be instafolded when not suited

[baltostar]

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any offsuit hand that you're instafolding should probably be instafolded when not suited

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Huh ?

[Cleverbeans]

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any offsuit hand that you're instafolding should probably be instafolded when not suited

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Huh ?

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What's confusing here? Two cards being suited barely improves their value and if you're comfortable playing AJo then play AJs the same way.

Personally I limp AJ in early middle position, raise it in late position. If I'm reraised on the limp I will call or fold depending on my read on the raiser. Post flop I try to keep the pot at a reasonable size if I hit an A and tend to be more aggressive if I hit top pair with the J. My goal is to generally extract value from A2-AT and KJ, QJ type hands so too much agression preflop will generally only keep the hands I don't want to be facing around. AJ is not a big hand, so I'm not trying to play big pots with it.

[MetalSpork]

I play it as above. Raising in early pushes out the weaker aces, which are the ones that will pay you off, and AK/AQ will force you to call a re-raise(or flat call, which gives you no information), and will have position on you throughout the hand. I also limp AQs here, for same reason.

This only applies to first few levels, where play is looser. I dont limp at 200/400+, unless I have a large stack, and ppl have been seeing flops cheaply (hardly ever)

[MetalSpork]

On calling raises with AJ, it depends on a lot of things, stacks sizes, position etc, but unless im getting desperate or have good read on raiser, im probably throwing this away. I could be wrong to do so of course, but ask yourself this:

What is raising here that you can BEAT?

What do you want to see on the flop? An ace? A jack?

Im making it sound like I throw it away every time I get it, which just isnt true, but its certainly a trouble hand that should be played cautiously.

[cheburashka]

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any offsuit hand that you're instafolding should probably be instafolded when not suited

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Huh ?

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If I'm not mistaken, he meant "suited" at the end, not "not suited". The idea is that a suited hand yields only about 2-3% more equity than the same hand off suit. For example, AJs has 47.6% equity against a sort of medium (for 4/180) MP open raising range of 77+, A9s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo, while AJo has 44.8% equity. If 44.8% equity is an instafold, should 47.6% be a probable call/reraise?

Personally speaking, I dunno, because while the equity difference is tiny, it seems to me you're gonna get paid a lot for those few times the nut flush comes in and villain is on something good. So the difference in potential chips won between AJs and AJo may be significantly more than the equity difference shown by pokerstove.

Thoughts?

[Stumpy]

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any offsuit hand that you're instafolding should probably be instafolded when not suited

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I think this is very wrong, but I think it's a pretty complex / interesting topic.

I think 3-4% equity is actually pretty big in a lot of situations.

Early, with small blinds, you'll be in a lot of multi-way pots.
Starting hands that can make big hands like straights and flushes have a huge advantage.
Being able to make the nut flush and nut straight is huge.

In a 4 way pot against 3 top 15% hands, AJo is 20.7% to win.
AJs is 25.1% to win. So you're winning with AJs 20% more often than AJo.
That is not trivial at all.


Also, some of these trouble spots you're talking about are reduced, because sometimes when you hit an A against AK, you've also got a straight or a flush draw.
AJo vs AK on Axx flop: 14%
AJs vs AK on Ass flop: 45%

AJo vs J9 on J9x flop: 14%
AJs vs J9 on J9sXs flop: 45%

Also, having a flush draw plus overcards is good against lower pairs or pocket pairs:
AJo vs KTo on Txx flop: 23.3%
AJs vs KTo on Tss flop: 54%.

I'm sure 75% or more of your losses with AJ are coming against AQ, AK, so study those hands and figure out what to do differently.
And post some of them. You shouldn't be looking to get in for 100BB stacks with top pair in most cases.

[baltostar]

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any offsuit hand that you're instafolding should probably be instafolded when not suited

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I think this is very wrong, but I think it's a pretty complex / interesting topic.

I think 3-4% equity is actually pretty big in a lot of situations.

Early, with small blinds, you'll be in a lot of multi-way pots.
Starting hands that can make big hands like straights and flushes have a huge advantage.
Being able to make the nut flush and nut straight is huge.

In a 4 way pot against 3 top 15% hands, AJo is 20.7% to win.
AJs is 25.1% to win. So you're winning with AJs 20% more often than AJo.
That is not trivial at all.


Also, some of these trouble spots you're talking about are reduced, because sometimes when you hit an A against AK, you've also got a straight or a flush draw.
AJo vs AK on Axx flop: 14%
AJs vs AK on Ass flop: 45%

AJo vs J9 on J9x flop: 14%
AJs vs J9 on J9sXs flop: 45%

Also, having a flush draw plus overcards is good against lower pairs or pocket pairs:
AJo vs KTo on Txx flop: 23.3%
AJs vs KTo on Tss flop: 54%.

I'm sure 75% or more of your losses with AJ are coming against AQ, AK, so study those hands and figure out what to do differently.
And post some of them. You shouldn't be looking to get in for 100BB stacks with top pair in most cases.

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Your analysis is exactly why I posted this thread. I hadn't run the numbers but I suspected these sorts of situational flop EV discrepancies.

I think AJs is a very attractive hand deep-stacked precisely because of the implied odds offerred by the suited ace broadway family ( AKs AQs AJs ATs ).

Sure, you can make a rule not to play this hand in a raised pre-flop pot, but if you decide playing this hand for up to 5xBB is crucial to your edge, the tricky part is post-flop play.

Maybe I should have entitled this thread "How to play AJs post-flop".

[Sherman]

You should fold in both occasions. Being deep is even more of an excuse to fold if you ask me. If you were shorter stacked and villain was more desperate, AJ might favor well against his PF range (or later in the tournament where a villain might be stealing).

However, early on with deep stacks, playing AJ is asking for trouble in my opinion. Here is the problem:

When you raise with AJs, what do you expect to get called with? Only better Aces and pairs are likely to call you. Otherwise, you just pick up the blinds. So I'd rather limp if anything with AJs.

If you are calling a raise, what are you hoping to make besides a flush or flush draw? Even if you make a top pair, you still have no idea if you can be expected to be ahead, and you don't want to play a big pot with it anyway.

Anyhow, with deep stacks, I'd prefer to stay way from AJo or AJs.

Sherman