I know most religious people don't really believe. And I can prove it.

[soon2bepro]

I'm talking about all the religious belief that offer eternal bliss as an afterlife.

Why would they be afraid to die, if they expect to live an eternal and immensely blissfull life afterwards?

Now I'm talking about the people who say they're certain they will get an afterlife, not of those who think there's a relevant chance they'll go to hell or whatever, don't count them in.

See, instinctively we are afraid of death. Even people who commit suicide suffer intensely while they're making the choice to end their lives, even if they know it is the right course of action for their situation. Most can't carry it out and end up seeking some other solution (which may or may not be best for them).

In any case, please don't turn this into a philosophical thread about suicide, that is not important.

What I'm talking about is the natural fear of death that pretty much every human has. While this is instinct at work more than anything else (although I do accept there are other reasons for this), it draws information from our consciousness. That is, it's not just that you'll be afraid of a hungry, fierce lion running towards you with the intention of having you for lunch, you'll also be afraid of things you know are bad for you, even if your instinct can't possibly tell one from the other.

For example, you'll most likely be afraid if someone was about to inject you a lethal injection. However if you know that this injection is just water (or colored water), and it looks exactly like the lethal one, you won't be afraid, because you know it's not dangerous.

Now this is obvious, but let's further suppose that the injection was meant to say cure a disease of yours. Or grant you 25 extra years of life, or whatever. But this injection does hurt. It will hurt as they put it into you, and you won't be able to sit on your ass for 15 days because it'll hurt.

Now, assuming you want this done, most people won't be afraid of the injection. They know it's for their own larger benefit, even if it's bad to some degree.

But most religious people are still afraid to die. Why would they be? Their say they believe their afterlife will be so much better than their physical life, so why would they be afraid, unless deep inside they knew it wasn't real, or at least they had reasonable doubt that it was?

[L'ennemi.]

The answer is obvious: they 're not sure that they will end up in the right place, and hell for eternity is kinda scary.

[bunny]

If anything I think you've demonstrated that they are uncertain in their belief, not that they dont believe.

I dont understand why certainty should be attached to faith (although I recognise that many believers claim the two are connected). I believe on faith but am not certain about those beliefs (less certain than I am about those things I believe based on empirical evidence, for example).

Even if you do believe in heaven, given some doubt, it makes perfect sense to avoid the moment of truth.

[Kaj]

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Even if you do believe in heaven, given some doubt, it makes perfect sense to avoid the moment of truth.

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Except that most claim they have NO doubt in God and heaven.

[bunny]

I understand - I dont think this is a sensible position to adopt, plus as luckyme pointed out in some thread or other recently, the very fact their views change through their life suggests this certainty is misplaced to say the least.

Nonetheless, for those who do entertain some doubt (whether acknowledged or not) the observed reluctance to die doesnt mean they dont believe, it means they're not 100% sure.

[Kaj]

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I understand - I dont think this is a sensible position to adopt, plus as luckyme pointed out in some thread or other recently, the very fact their views change through their life suggests this certainty is misplaced to say the least.

Nonetheless, for those who do entertain some doubt (whether acknowledged or not) the observed reluctance to die doesnt mean they dont believe, it means they're not 100% sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Concur completely. Your honesty about your faith is quite refreshing.

[AWoodside]

[ QUOTE ]
If anything I think you've demonstrated that they are uncertain in their belief, not that they dont believe.

I dont understand why certainty should be attached to faith (although I recognise that many believers claim the two are connected). I believe on faith but am not certain about those beliefs (less certain than I am about those things I believe based on empirical evidence, for example).

Even if you do believe in heaven, given some doubt, it makes perfect sense to avoid the moment of truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does it mean to have beliefs you are uncertain of on faith? First, I think we should define what faith is. I usually define it as something like "belief without empirical evidence", or "willing suspension of rational thought in order to render any evidence for or against a hypothesis irrelevant to your subjective evaluation of the probability that it's true," but these may be too pejorative for you.

I'm trying to figure out what it means exactly to have uncertainty about something taken on faith. Does this mean that you shift your probability estimates despite having no rational/empirical reason to do so, but you just don't shift them all the way to 100 percent? I'm really not trying to be hostile, I'm just confused by what you mean.

[bunny]

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What does it mean to have beliefs you are uncertain of on faith?

[/ QUOTE ]
The same as having a belief I am uncertain of derived through some other process. A mathematical example - I have been in the position a few times of deriving a surprising result, checking it, rechecking it and eventually concluding that I'm right. Nonetheless, part of me doubts the conclusion and if a maths-whiz-genius-professor said "actually this step doesnt follow and you're wrong" it wouldnt cause my confidence in maths to crumble. I think we have many beliefs with varying degrees of certainty and the same is true of my spiritual beliefs.

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First, I think we should define what faith is. I usually define it as something like "belief without empirical evidence"

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree - although I include subjective observation as my (weak) evidence, not sure whether you count subjective introspection as valueless or just very, very unreliable...?

[ QUOTE ]
, or "willing suspension of rational thought in order to render any evidence for or against a hypothesis irrelevant to your subjective evaluation of the probability that it's true," but these may be too pejorative for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont subscribe to this view. If my faith-held beliefs led to a contradiction I would consider it disproved and abandon it (I expect).

[soon2bepro]

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If anything I think you've demonstrated that they are uncertain in their belief, not that they dont believe.

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I know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. The topic name was just an attention catcher.

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I dont understand why certainty should be attached to faith (although I recognise that many believers claim the two are connected).

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This is it. That's all I'm interested in, showing they're not really so sure about their beliefs. Once they accept their beliefs are not unshakable, there may be a chance to save their minds from this virus and get them to be able to think freely and rationally.

[bunny]

I'm saved!