HORSERACING - Super paying less than trifecta?

Yoshi63 · #1 08-06-2007, 02:11 AM

Went to the horseraces today, never been before. All the different types of bets were explained to me, including the exotics.

At the end of one race, it was announced that the trifect paid some $20k, while the supertrifecta only paid $7k. Of course there was some reason for this, and the winning 'lines' read:

trifecta: 1-8-3
supertri: 1-8-3-ALL

So my question is.. what does ALL mean and/or why was it introduced into this race? If it just means that any combination of 1-8-3-x is a winner, isn't that the same as a regular trifecta? Why would it pay less? There were no DQ's in this race.

TY to anyone who can explain. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

youtalkfunny · #2 08-06-2007, 02:17 AM

Nobody had the winning super combo. A 1-8-3-any super ticket is a winner.

There were more 1-8-3-x super tickets, than there were 1-8-3 tri tickets. Or maybe the tri pool was just much larger.

Yoshi63 · #3 08-06-2007, 02:37 AM

I think your post has opened more doors.

Apparently - and this makes sense - all bets are paid out on a pool basis? (So the payouts for all "to win" bets are simply a function of the number of bettors divided by all the "to win" $ pool?)

When I place a super-trifecta bet for 1-2-3-4.. I am simply purchasing a raffle ticket for a chance to win a piece of the ENTIRE super-trifecta pool (unless I'm the only winner, and thus scooping the whole pool).

Do any of the pools overlap? Or are the to-win's separate from the exactas, separate from the supertrifectas, ect...

Finally, now that I understand how the lines are set and paid - what is a typical percentage taken from the pool by the 'house'? I can tell it is quite high, higher than the ~9% typically taken from sportsbetting. If I had to guess, I would think as high as 15-20%

Bishop22 · #4 08-06-2007, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think your post has opened more doors.

Apparently - and this makes sense - all bets are paid out on a pool basis? (So the payouts for all "to win" bets are simply a function of the number of bettors divided by all the "to win" $ pool?)

When I place a super-trifecta bet for 1-2-3-4.. I am simply purchasing a raffle ticket for a chance to win a piece of the ENTIRE super-trifecta pool (unless I'm the only winner, and thus scooping the whole pool).

Do any of the pools overlap? Or are the to-win's separate from the exactas, separate from the supertrifectas, ect...

Finally, now that I understand how the lines are set and paid - what is a typical percentage taken from the pool by the 'house'? I can tell it is quite high, higher than the ~9% typically taken from sportsbetting. If I had to guess, I would think as high as 15-20%

[/ QUOTE ]

You have successfully mastered beginners pari-mutual wagering, yes the pools are all separate and yes the vig is typically ~20%.

Yoshi63 · #5 08-06-2007, 03:36 AM

I just read a couple articles on "parimutuel wagering"... and apparently I didn't understand what was happening at the track very well. I assumed it was something closer to the "straight wagering" I was more accustomed to with sportsbetting.

My only remaining question is - since the only posted live odds are for "to win," how do the other wagers equalize?

Here is an example to show what I'm asking:

Horse #1 (going @ 1-1)
Horse #2 (going @ 4-1)

The final results are 1-2-x....

For whatever reason, while almost 50% of the "win" bets were for #1.. only 20% of the "place" bets were for #1, and nobody bet on #2 to place. So the entire "place" pool is divided between the 20% of "#1 place" bettors.

Thus the payout for horse #1 would be... 1.00 4.00

Obviously it makes no sense for the payout on "place" to be higher than "win" (since any win also places). If the betting public had SEEN this trend prior to the race starting, there would have been a flood of bets on #1 or #4 to place, and thus equalizing the line. But since the payouts are only listed to win, how would anybody know?

Bishop22 · #6 08-06-2007, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I just read a couple articles on "parimutuel wagering"... and apparently I didn't understand what was happening at the track very well. I assumed it was something closer to the "straight wagering" I was more accustomed to with sportsbetting.

My only remaining question is - since the only posted live odds are for "to win," how do the other wagers equalize?

Here is an example to show what I'm asking:

Horse #1 (going @ 1-1)
Horse #2 (going @ 4-1)

The final results are 1-2-x....

For whatever reason, while almost 50% of the "win" bets were for #1.. only 20% of the "place" bets were for #1, and nobody bet on #2 to place. So the entire "place" pool is divided between the 20% of "#1 place" bettors.

Thus the payout for horse #1 would be... 1.00 4.00

Obviously it makes no sense for the payout on "place" to be higher than "win" (since any win also places). If the betting public had SEEN this trend prior to the race starting, there would have been a flood of bets on #1 or #4 to place, and thus equalizing the line. But since the payouts are only listed to win, how would anybody know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pool information for place and show is available in a number of places, although it is not as prominent as the win odds. If you watch a typical feed you will see 'will pays' for daily doubles and exactas scroll next to the odds. They often show place and show pools but you would have to calculate your own 'will pays'. Yes place bets COULD theoretically pay more than win bets and they DID back before internet wagering made the pool data available to enough people to ensure that it will probably never happen again. You will still see show bets pay more than place bets from time to time, although I can't remember the last time I saw that happen. The pools are totally separate.

Yoshi63 · #7 08-06-2007, 04:19 AM

Is the 'place' pool split exactly in half and distributed equally between the two winners? (meaning those who picked #1 would equally split their half-pool, and the same for #2 pickers). Likewise for the 'show' pool, where three 1/3'rd pools are created and fairly distributed...

You mentioned that the place, show, exacta, ect... are often listed somewhere. What about the supertrifecta in a 12-horse race? There would be an enormous number of different combinations, certainly too many to post even on any webpage. So for that pool the distributions would simply be in the dark?

Thanks for your insight btw Bishop.