Made Flush - Limp Reraise - Can I fold?

[Poker Jon]

Hi All,

Villain in this hand seems to be a TAG and isn't throwing his chips round a fair amount. He is playing ABC poker. History, is that I made a huge riuver bluff on him (not shown) about 30 hands or so ago, and he definately laid down a bid hand, so I think I can give him some form of respect.

In this example, I didn't know whether I was up against a bigger made flush, with Villain holding AcXc, or whether it was the bare Ace of clubs?? Can I find a fold here.

Also how much does the SB flat call alter our play??

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 (t8225)
MP1 (t3285)
MP2 (t22290)
MP3 (t16003)
CO (t40730)
Hero (t36743)
SB (t22555)
BB (t14140)
UTG (t20220)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1800</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls t1800, SB calls t1500, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t5500) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t5500) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t600</font>, UTG calls t600, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t4200</font>, SB calls t3600, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t18370</font>, Hero??????

Cheers,

Jon

[hamnegger]

call

[veggies]

Fold preflop.

But since you are in it you have to call. What were you looking for when you called his preflop raise? If you just made him lay down a big hand not long ago, he is far less likely to lay another big one down against you. Not really the spot you should be trying to take another away from him after the flop.

But now you hit your hand almost as best you could and you are thinking about folding?

Crying call.

[Cornell Fiji]

Preflop is really bad

You hit the best possible flop and checked which is really bad

You hit the best possible turn and are wondering if you should get the money in... thats really bad.

[black666]

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Preflop is really bad

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind it that much because hero is deep and on the button. It's very easy to get rid of the hand on the flop or stack villain if you hit. Take a PF call with AJ for example. If an Ace flops and UTG has AQ/AK, it can get very expensive.
I don't advocate calling here everytime with such hands, but I do mix those in.

[ QUOTE ]
You hit the best possible flop and checked which is really bad

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate that? Why not take the free card?

[ QUOTE ]
You hit the best possible turn and are wondering if you should get the money in... thats really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT
You've hit and you should be instacalling. The fact that you have 2 clubs in your hand makes it even more unlikely that one of the 2 villains has a flush. I guess UTG has the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[illini43]

Echoing what others have said:

- Fold preflop.

- I bet the flop because:
1) A bet might take down a nice sized pot on the flop
2) If your bet is called/raised, you have a lot of good cards on the turn that could help or 3bet pushing the flop with ~ 12-13 outs to hit your hand is never really a bad thing.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

For those who say this is an insta-call, you are guilty of first-level thinking, where you are looking solely at your cards and say, "ZOMG!!! I have a flush!!!!" While I wouldn't fold, I think that the OP is correct to take a step back and re-evaluate his hand based on the action in front of him, including the response to his raise.

I think that the correct answer is to raise so that UTG puts his last 50 chips in with what I think is a set of aces or kings and put SB all-in with what I guess is two pair or one pair with a high club...possibly a set that tried and failed to check-raise.

[typically]

I think this situation illustrates why the preflop call is horrible. This is super-hard to fold, but I'm curious as to why he would call-push, unless he's got you labelled (perhaps accurately) as LAG. If he had trips or something don't you think he would be raising this with the flush draw there?

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this situation illustrates why the preflop call is horrible. This is super-hard to fold, but I'm curious as to why he would call-push, unless he's got you labelled (perhaps accurately) as LAG. If he had trips or something don't you think he would be raising this with the flush draw there?

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand with the ace of clubs is something that is a reasonable slowplay in this situation because even if the flush card comes on the turn, you still have outs. So I don't think that UTG has an auto-bet on the flop.

Too much is being made of the preflop call (which was bad). OP would still be in this problem if he had J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], which wouldn't be as bad of a call preflop, but which would be an almost identical scenario as a practical matter.

One thing that we have to ask ourselves is if the villain here would put hero on a likely flush. Has the hero normally bet his flush draws if checked to on the flop? Would hero bet or raise with two pair with a possible flush out there? OP absolute can consider folding here, given a sufficient read on UTG. I'm just not sure that OP has enough info for that read.

It's a difficult decision, but if you want to play poker with few difficult decisions, go short-stack some online NLHE cash games.

[Stumpy]

Pokr, with all this action, I don't see how anyone in this hand can't be pretty sure someone has a flush.

Also J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would be better for two reasons:
1. You're not losing to every single other flush right now. (SB = 56,67,78 = great now.)
2. The J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] are more a part of the SB and UTG range than 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] so you'd remove some of their flush combinations (which are bad for you.)
3. (minor) You'd have a gutshot straight-flush draw.