I'm in ur flopz, holding top pairz

RemyXO · #1 08-01-2007, 01:25 AM

Interesting hand popped up during a session review, and we seem to be a disagreement with my peer.
Nevermind preflop limp - table conditions were good. What do you think of flop and turn?
Villain is solid aggressive 21/11/2.9 over 1K

Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.70 BB

marchron · #2 08-01-2007, 01:30 AM

Wow. Please get me on the first train out of Spewville post haste.

BigBadBabar · #3 08-01-2007, 01:31 AM

this train is headed to:

[ ] valuetown
[x] spewville

RemyXO · #4 08-01-2007, 01:37 AM

Stay where you are, dammit, the train is overbooked!
Explain your thoughts about hero's actions without using [censored]!

marchron · #5 08-01-2007, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Stay where you are, dammit, the train is overbooked!
Explain your thoughts about hero's actions without using [censored]!

[/ QUOTE ]
On the flop, you're check/3-betting two players who've both shown at least some strength.

On the turn, you're folding what's almost always a five-out draw against an overpair, getting better than 10-1. But the only reason you're here is because you didn't fold the flop and bloated the pot to make a call here mandatory.

RemyXO · #6 08-01-2007, 02:26 AM

Gracias gentlemen, this hand didn't look right at all on both streets.

Aaron W. · #7 08-01-2007, 01:39 AM

I muck on the flop. Coldcaller is likely holding a J that's bigger than yours.

Shillx · #8 08-01-2007, 01:42 AM

Wow this hand was played so bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

How do you not call the turn? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Harv72b · #9 08-01-2007, 02:28 AM

Preflop: I'm not gonna ignore this one. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Okay, there is such a thing as proper table conditions to limp a hand like this up front, but I very rarely see them online anymore (even at .25/.50). We weren't there & you didn't give reads for everyone, so we obviously have to take your word for it...but as for me, personally, I'm much more apt to raise preflop in this general situation than limp. I don't recomment raising QJs first in every time from EP, but it should be in your aresenal...both as a change of pace play, and because a hand like QJs plays pretty well in both a large, multi-way pot, and against many 3-betting hands (in the sense that you'll often have two live cards to go with your straight/flush potential). And of course any two cards play pretty well with position vs. just the blind(s).

Flop: Lead the flop into the PFR. Let him raise & blow out the field if that's what he's going to do. Your hand, if best, is still fairly vulnerable to overcards (and there are a few unlikely straight draws out there), and I'd generally just rather let the PFR know that I've got something to beat ace high & let him decide how much action he wants to give me.

Given the play in the hand thus far & the resulting bloated pot, you need to check/call the turn unless you're very confident that MP1 is holding a set or better. Far more likely, you're getting 10.5ish:1 to chase 5 good outs, which is more than enough.

I think I see what you were going for with the flop play: MP1 is aggressive enough to c-bet there with overcards or an underpair, and it's entirely possible that MP3 is trying to isolate with an underpair of his own in hopes that MP1 does have AK. So you check/3-bet with your top pair, figuring that a cap from either player likely means you're beat...a decent plan, but by leading into the PFR on a flop like this you'll generally gain the same amount of information at half the cost. And, of course, the check/3-bet had the effect of artificially creating the proper odds to call another bet on the turn, which in turn is likely going to create the proper odds to call yet one more on the river when you don't improve (who's to say he wouldn't play AK or TT that way 1 in 12.5 times?). So in effect, checking the flop (and then 3betting when it comes back 2 bets to you) often forces you to put in 4 big bets postflop, while you can get to a showdown for just 3 BBs by bet/calling the flop (bet/folding if it's raised & 3bet) and then check/calling down. Or get out of the hand after putting in 1 BB postflop if you decide you believe MP1 & just check/fold the turn (now not getting immediate odds to draw at a 5-outer, although you could justify the call anyway if you believe you can get 1 bet out of him on the river when you hit).

Shillx · #10 08-01-2007, 02:46 AM

The turn is close since you are dead against JJ and good as dead against QQ. Also you are in worse shape if he can have AJ since it gives you some RIO issues (along with just having 3 outs). That said, you are good for a check/raise on the river if you hit a queen and a bet/puke if you find a jack. Building this super huge pot and folding to the turn bet really kills your image and should be considered as well.