1/2 - Turn nuts in huge pot, followed by worst river ever.

Landonfan · #1 07-30-2007, 03:04 PM

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7SB, 4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.5BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Button calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (21.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: 21.5BB

Sushiglutton · #2 07-30-2007, 03:07 PM

looks good

Xhad · #3 07-30-2007, 03:14 PM

Yikes, that is an ugly spot. The important thing to realize here is that you are a favorite against button. There are a lot of hands you beat vs. hands that beat you and the hands that beat you he's less likely to play that way (not raising KK, JJ, TT, pf? Flat-calling 77 on that drawy board? possible but not that likely especially since if he plays 77 this way he probably also plays 98s this way and there are more combos of that). Really you're just afraid of UTG hitting his flush since he's done nothing but coldcall the entire hand, then again he could also have a number of Kx hands expecially those that had a straight draw on the turn to go with it. I'd probably bet and call one but I might be results-oriented on this one (this is a perfect example of a hand post that should be cut off at the decision point).

PF is obvious, flop is good, turn I probably bet thinking that the flop raiser might check through with Jx or a draw which he will often have but don't think the c/r is a big mistake against this many people on this board.

shuinthehouse · #4 07-30-2007, 03:38 PM

xhad - I was thinking the C-bet was not good, OOP into 3 villains on a drawy board, and was surprised to see you approve. I thought we did not like to C-bet drawy boards into multiple villains due to likelihood of being raised? I would think even last to act we might not want to c-bet this flop 4 way.

tyler_cracker · #5 07-30-2007, 03:47 PM

flop cbet is meh.

i like donking the turn for the reasons xhad laid out.

for any who advocate betting the river (babar), are you folding to a raise? only from certain players? 3betting lol?

GLKST526 · #6 07-30-2007, 03:52 PM

The problem with not C betting the flop is that if you check the flop after raising out of the blinds, you are saying hey, didn't hit my hand please steal this from me, and someone is going to oblige, which puts you in the position of either folding, or calling OOP and hoping to hit your hand with a very limited idea of what the bettor has. It's somewhat marginal and if I didn't have the overs, the straight draw, and the backdoor draw to the nut flush, I might consider just checking and folding given the texture of the flop

Xhad · #7 07-30-2007, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
for any who advocate betting the river (babar), are you folding to a raise? only from certain players? 3betting lol?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call one and probably fold for two. 3betting is absurd, especially if it's UTG doing it.

GLKST526 · #8 07-30-2007, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for any who advocate betting the river (babar), are you folding to a raise? only from certain players? 3betting lol?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call one and probably fold for two. 3betting is absurd, especially if it's UTG doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The pot is just too big to fold for one extra bet, but what is someone possibly 3 betting on that board that can't beat a straight? I'd fold and cry when I saw A7 and KJ

tyler_cracker · #9 07-30-2007, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with not C betting the flop is that if you check the flop after raising out of the blinds, you are saying hey, didn't hit my hand please steal this from me, and someone is going to oblige, which puts you in the position of either folding, or calling OOP and hoping to hit your hand with a very limited idea of what the bettor has.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a complex topic that i'm not going to fully explore right now, but this is a very dangerous mode of thinking. raising preflop does not obligate you to bet the flop. if you always cbet, you are spewing.

yes, it sucks to be oop and to whiff the flop and to check, but that's a lot better than tossing a bet in because "checking is weak/turns my hand face up/to find out where i'm at".

GLKST526 · #10 07-30-2007, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

this is a complex topic that i'm not going to fully explore right now, but this is a very dangerous mode of thinking. raising preflop does not obligate you to bet the flop. if you always cbet, you are spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, which is why I qualified that in this particular case I would make the C-bet because I had the overs, the straight draw, and the backdoor nut flush draw, and that if I did not have those things I'd be fine with check folding. I do agree that cbetting regardless of situation is the very definition of spew, and that this particular situation is not ideal for one. However, in this particular case (and I certainly may be wrong about this), it seems that the hero feels committed to at least seeing a turn card, and my opinion is that if you are going to stick around for that I prefer a bet as opposed to a check call