40-80 Borg Big pot Interesting JJ hand

SA125 · #1 07-27-2007, 05:28 PM

40-80 Borg I sat down around 8:30AM when it was 6 handed. It filled up shortly there after as the regulars rolled in. As they all seem to know each other, I guess I'm the only one who isn't. I'll include some names here for those in the know.

3 limpers to me and I raise JJ on the button. My image is probably tight.

Mustafa is the SB and I played with him a little the night before. All I can say for sure is he's agro. He now goes into his routine, which he seems to do a lot, and makes a production out of his 3 bet.

3 limpers call, I just call. 5 way to the flop for 3 bets.

Flop Qh Qx Th. Ch'd around. LOL.

Turn 3x. For those wondering, 99% sure it didn't put another fl dr out.

Ch'd to a seemingly good young asian girl in LMP, the last one to act before me. She bets, I call, BB calls, fold, now Kyle c/r's. He had limped in EP. Asian girl quickly calls. I call time, tank a bit and fold. BB calls.

River x. Ch, Kyle bets, asian girl calls, BB folds.

Thoughts on the hand?

KitCloudkicker · #2 07-27-2007, 05:32 PM

not capping pf is odd

not betting the flop is puzzling

not raising the turn and folding to a 3 bet is head scratching

rafiki · #3 07-27-2007, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
not capping pf is odd

not betting the flop is puzzling

not raising the turn and folding to a 3 bet is head scratching

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

SA125 · #4 07-27-2007, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
not capping pf is odd

not betting the flop is puzzling

not raising the turn and folding to a 3 bet is head scratching

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like I'm in the minority here. I guess it's all agro all the time with most of you guys.

PF cap builds the pot to 20 BB's. No arguement. I like big pots. I think there's something to be said for not capping and leaving the SB with the lead.

Post flop though, on that board I think there's room for watching and thinking.

Hielko · #5 07-27-2007, 06:16 PM

I think preflop is fine.

But I think you should bet the flop. Large pot, probably the best hand but all kind of bad cards can come on turn or river.

Failing the bet the flop I would raise the turn for sure for protection.

brick · #6 07-27-2007, 06:31 PM

Raise PF, because as threeonefour said, "it's like printing money".
Build a pot with position against the 3-bettor. If LP players fold that's great because of the overlay. If they call that's fine too because you have an equity edge.

As Hielko said: "I think you should bet the flop. Large pot, probably the best hand but all kind of bad cards can come on turn or river.

Failing the bet the flop I would raise the turn for sure for protection."

I'm NOT for "all agression all the time" but there are some major factors in play which make agression correct on this hand.

Hyperrrprank · #7 07-27-2007, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Post flop though, on that board I think there's room for watching and thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true, but that's not what's happening. If you bet the flop or raise the turn, you are likely to get a better handle on who is on a draw and who, if anyone, holds a Q. As played you've given what may be the best hand no protection, and may have induced a bluff or semi-bluff that you are now folding to. You watched and thought yourself out of the hand.

A raise on the turn costs you two bets if you fold to a three bet. Call/folding to a raise from a worse hand costs 1 bet anyway and loses you the whole pot if you let a worse hand push you out.

SA125 · #8 07-27-2007, 08:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop or raise the turn, you are likely to get a better handle on who is on a draw and who, if anyone, holds a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a flop bet opens up the door for a lot of misinformation raising and possibly being outplayed. I'm either ahead or crushed and a bet from me here can make things more confusing than clearer.

[ QUOTE ]
As played you've given what may be the best hand no protection, and may have induced a bluff or semi-bluff that you are now folding to. You watched and thought yourself out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the protection part. On the flop the pot is 5 way with 15-16 SB's. Had I capped it would've had 20 SB's. Many hands would be right to call and stay in. Some for 2 bets.

[ QUOTE ]
A raise on the turn costs you two bets if you fold to a three bet. Call/folding to a raise from a worse hand costs 1 bet anyway and loses you the whole pot if you let a worse hand push you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it was a "had to be there" spot. Or maybe it's just live poker. When that turn is bet, called in two spots, then it's c/r'd and the bettor insta calls, JJ is drawing to 2 outs almost every time. I seriously doubt a worse hand is pushing me out there. On the flop it could be anything.

On the turn, few players are strong enough to c/r the field with 99 there.

KitCloudkicker · #9 07-27-2007, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

On the turn, few players are strong enough to c/r the field with 99 there.

[/ QUOTE ]

who the heck said anything about calling the check raise?

Hielko · #10 07-28-2007, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop or raise the turn, you are likely to get a better handle on who is on a draw and who, if anyone, holds a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a flop bet opens up the door for a lot of misinformation raising and possibly being outplayed. I'm either ahead or crushed and a bet from me here can make things more confusing than clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot is 15SB big preflop, that means that you should do everything you can to protect your hand. Gutshots and better are obviously not folding, but you will be able to protect your hand against ax, kx, small pocket pairs, backdoor straight draws and backdoor flushdraws. You will also get value from draws calling.

I don't exactly see why you are afraid of being outplayed when you bet the flop. Do you really think that it will get 3-bets (so two players c/r'ing) if you bet while you still have the best hand? I don't see that happening.