98s small blind steal.

MJBuddy · #1 07-26-2007, 03:45 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 (t3460)
MP1 (t1815)
MP2 (t3570)
CO (t5443)
Button (t2340)
Hero (t3070)
BB (t1462)
UTG (t1275)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, 2 folds, MP2 calls t150, CO calls t150, 1 fold, Hero raises to t3145, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: t750

I've shown down AK and KK AIPF so far. Is this standard here?

illini43 · #2 07-26-2007, 03:48 PM

I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

MJBuddy · #3 07-26-2007, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

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What's limping here that has be totally dogged?

QJ, JT, KJ? AT+ here isn't going to show up with this many limpers, I have a bunch of FE, especially on the 3 major hands that have me hurt. A9 is my biggest fear. That or low PP which I'm at a flip with with dead money. Also the pot is huge relative to my stack :P.

illini43 · #4 07-26-2007, 03:55 PM

I'm not sure if it is higher cEV to push preflop or call and hope to catch a flop, and thus win a bigger pot than the 600 chips from the BB and limpers. I would think the possibility of doubling when you hit a flop would be greater than winning the limps sometimes.

I'm sure there's an equation for it, I just don't feel like creating one now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

MJBuddy · #5 07-26-2007, 03:59 PM

Kind've what I'm wondering too :P.

If I catch a flop it doesn't necessarily mean I'm doubling. If I catch the flop it doesn't necessarily mean I'm ahead either.

illini43 · #6 07-26-2007, 04:12 PM

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Kind've what I'm wondering too :P.

If I catch a flop it doesn't necessarily mean I'm doubling. If I catch the flop it doesn't necessarily mean I'm ahead either.

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Right. If you push, you aren't always going to win the blinds, when you get called, you will lose a certain % of the time.

The equation would be something like:

EV of Pushing = {(% limpers fold x 600)+[(% limper calls and you win (your equity against his calling range (E)) x ~3700) - (% limper calls and you lose (opponents equity (Eo) x -3150)].

You would have to compare that to when you called the bet, saw a flop and won a theoretical number of average chips.

Let's say you hit a flop 25% of the time you call and you will win an extra 500 chips on average when you hit a flop. (This will factor in the net gain of chips won and lost when you get it in if you hit the flop. So let's say you would on average net 500 chips by hitting a flop over thousands of trials). So, 75% of the time, you would check/fold and lose 150 chips. 25% of the time, you would win 500 chips. This comes out to barely above break-even chip wise (~ +12.5).

These are just arbitrary numbers, but you could use them as a guideline to figuring out which option is better (after you would run the cEV for pushing preflop)

bogey1 · #7 07-26-2007, 04:19 PM

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I would think the possibility of doubling when you hit a flop would be greater than winning the limps sometimes.

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Just a note that you're going to be more than doubling if you catch good. You'll take the limper money, plus double, plus any extra goodness from potentially more than 1 person putting chips into the flop/turn.

Not invalidating any of what's said, just pointing out that the upside is may involve more than one person giving you chips.

bogey1 · #8 07-26-2007, 03:57 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

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What's limping here that has be totally dogged?

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Well, that's true with KTo as well, right? What range are you shoving in this spot?

ParadiceCity · #9 07-26-2007, 10:12 PM

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I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

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Um he is shoving all in here not just squeezing, what difference would it make whether its 89 or 105o, if you squeeze about 6-8xbb, then 105o is good because its an easy hand to play if you get repopped or called, but i dont see the value in pushing with 105o as opposed to 89s all in

illini43 · #10 07-26-2007, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um he is shoving all in here not just squeezing, what difference would it make whether its 89 or 105o, if you squeeze about 6-8xbb, then 105o is good because its an easy hand to play if you get repopped or called, but i dont see the value in pushing with 105o as opposed to 89s all in

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This question has nothing to do with the hand Hero has, its about putting villians on ranges and the likelihood they would fold because they just limped instead of raising. Making this move is basically independent of the hand we hold.