Is it wrong to listen to Nazi bands?

[luckyjimm]

Just started watching a documentary on those two girls, Prussian Blue

http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr...pop/index.html

Prussian Blue, I'm sure, make crappy music of no merit or interest. But what happens when bad people actually make good music? Could you forget the politics and still like it; or listen to it without subscribing to the politics?

As a Gothic teenager I listened to several bands who flirted with Nazi or occult imagery. Specifically, Death in June:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_In_June

who, alongside other "apocalyptic folk" bands like Current 93 used Holocaust and white supremacist imagery in some of their songs. Their politics and their place in the punk and UK political scene are intelligently dissected here by Stewart Holme: http://stewarthomesociety.org/dij.htm

I listened to Rozz Williams / Christian Death whose songs were very dark and, of course, anti-Christian

I listened to Radio Werewolf, a band set up by Zena LaVey, whose father founded the Church of Satan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Werewolf

and a singer called David E Williams: http://www.myspace.com/davidewilliams

who is a fantastic lyricist and composer (albeit with an odd singing voice) whose albums contained beautiful love songs, but also other songs which have intentionally vile (yet ironically cloaked) supremacist / psychotic sentiments.

I recently downloaded and listened to his music again and found, as when I was a teenager, I very much liked his love/anti-love songs and just didn't listen to the extremist/sadistic ones. (I am the same when it comes to Billy Bragg). I found and have been listening on repeat to a duet he did with Rozz Williams - a cover of Abba's The Winner Takes it All. It was one of the most beautiful covers I ever heard.

So, could you forgive yourself for listening to good tracks by bad people? Perhaps what you do is form a judgement on what use they're making of the imagery. It's all about context. For example Sylvia Plath's famous poem Daddy makes very strong use of this sort of imagery:

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/404.html

but what she is doing is condemning her father by casting him in the role of a German, and herself as a Jewish victim - incredibly powerful and shocking, but in no sense is she endorsing the extremist views. She's just using it as a metaphor, the most powerful weapon in her stock of imagery. By the same measure of authorial intent you might condemn T.S. Eliot poems which appear more like a sincere expression of his anti-semitism.

So, the two considerations I believe are a) the artist's intent, and, b) genre. For example the comic metal band GWAR have some horrible lyrics about serial killers, but it's part of a death/glam metal genre and you realise it's part of an act. Similarly with the goth bands, their Occult/Nazi references are part of a scene's "dark" image and not really reflecting their beliefs.

How do you decide what you should or shouldn't listen to - is it just what you like, or do political considerations come into it?


I suppose I think that listening to genuinely Nazi bands like Skrewdriver or Prussian Blue, who come out of the white supremacist movement, cannot be justified on any grounds, musical or otherwise. But if they're part of the goth or metal scene, they don't really mean it and you can listen to it. Is this a cop-out?

[slothinator]

I think you should post the same topic twice to double the number of people who think this is a stupid thread. They are bad people, and if you don't agree with their politics, you shouldn't be listening to their music.

[cianosheehan]

[ QUOTE ]
and if you don't agree with their politics, you shouldn't be listening to their music.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree with this statement. To use a general example, I dont agree with gun violence and beating up women but I still listen to some rap. Just because I like how it sounds doesn't mean I model myself after those who have written it.

[DonkeyKongSr]

This will be my favorite Nazi band once they are 18. I've never heard a note of their music before, but I bet they are awesome.

[MuresanForMVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should post the same topic twice to double the number of people who think this is a stupid thread. They are bad people, and if you don't agree with their politics, you shouldn't be listening to their music.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree with this at all. If I,as a consumer, like the way something sounds then there's no problem with me buying it. Hell,maybe I don't support the message of rappers who like slappin' hoes up (don't get me wrong I do) but I still like the song, then that's completely up to me and by no means is it "wrong" to listen to it. It's pretty far fetched that a Neo-Nazi band would sound good considering their music without fail sounds heinous, but if that happened we'd have something to talk about.

edit:some people beat me to it, oh well.

[luckyjimm]

B.I.G.'s Ready to Die is one of my favourite albums.
Gimme the Loot is one of my favourite ever rap songs. Yet I'm not advocating drive-bys or cop-killing...

[TheDudeAbides]

[ QUOTE ]
So, the two considerations I believe are a) the artist's intent, and, b) genre. For example the comic metal band GWAR have some horrible lyrics about serial killers, but it's part of a death/glam metal genre and you realise it's part of an act. Similarly with the goth bands, their Occult/Nazi references are part of a scene's "dark" image and not really reflecting their beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is flawed on so many levels. DUCY?

[luckyjimm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, the two considerations I believe are a) the artist's intent, and, b) genre. For example the comic metal band GWAR have some horrible lyrics about serial killers, but it's part of a death/glam metal genre and you realise it's part of an act. Similarly with the goth bands, their Occult/Nazi references are part of a scene's "dark" image and not really reflecting their beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is flawed on so many levels. DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you're right - the Nazi bands are also "just part of a scene", as are the gangster rappers, etc. So that's no excuse. How about "the politics, beliefs and and behaviours of the musicians I listen to does not reflect my politics, beliefs or behaviour"?

[Hiiiiiiii]

If you like the music then no. If you are considering killing a race of people when you listen to it, then yes. Easy.

[luckyjimm]

Here are some David E Williams lyrics of the sort I like - love/anti-love songs:

I Have Forgotten How to Love You
I Have Forgotten How to Love You
I Have Forgotten How to Love You
I Have Forgotten How to Love You
I Have Forgotten How to Love You

A squirrel walked into the mower.
Alright, I put him in there if truth be told.
But I was
young and gay in a terrible time.
To my mind, still,
my most heinous crime
is that

I Have Forgotten How to Love You
and reason for going on is gone, gone.
Pilate resigns with a sign of the cross.
You can't fly an airplane on chocolate sauce.

There was a bear
a holy terror in your room.
When I shot him I discovered
he was my brother
in a bear costume.

So much for me as the Iron Man
a warrior soul made of marzipan

The memories of those better years
are shining brightly through my tears.
I Have Forgotten How to Love You.
I can't remember how.
Dismember, disembowel
me now.

_________________________

Fear of Food

Only one thing can save you
from the Evil which you are:
that would be a tourniquet over
your tracheotomy scar.

Only thing I ever got from you:
the spice rack I stole in June.
I had never heard of fennel nor
coriander before.

Still, every dinner ends the same
but no end of sin for the Holy One.
All the bread it has the same
taste of cold linoleum.

My feet are in enormous pain.
Nothing more for me to do
but to empty the bone and jelly remains
of the frog you put in my shoe.

________________________________________

Spring is in the Air

Spring is in the air
and there's a cyst on my cheek.
Everyone's in love
except for me.

And the terrible image
of Nature unbound
can only remind me of you.
And the terrible image
of Nature unbound
can only remind me of you.

And I hope there's no such thing
as karma on this Earth;
I love you too much for me to see
you get what you truly deserve.

Went straight from the Little League
to bisexual goblin.
Mommy always wanted a daughter;
Daddy was convinced that she got one...