faith, religion, spirituality

[JaBlue]

Standing with my bike, waiting for the train. Dude asks me if it goes to Menlo Park. Yep. Then I explain how you have to choose a ticket before paying, tricky Caltrain machine. Dude thanks me, I get ready to hoist my bike on the train.

Overhear a bum ask for change. Look down, check pocket knowing that there's only a 20 in the wallet. Look up, get the finger.

The other dude comes back to talk to me, says Thanks for earlier.
No problem man.
He hands me a million dollar bill with Grover Cleveland (only president to win, lose, win elections) on the front and a long sentence that begins: Are you going to heaven... on the back.

We chat. Scott's a nice guy, and a Messianic Jew, or Jew that believes Jeshua, Jesus, was the Messiah. Didn't ask him what the difference was between a Messianic Jew and a Christian like I should have. Talked about religion a bit, told him I'm not religious but agnostic.

On the train I read the small pamphlet he gave me, very interesting. Will definitely read more, and especially will reread the Torah just because I should. Will probably remain agnostic but I got to thinking about spirituality. Lately I feel like I'm learning that spirituality for me means becoming more compassionate and selfless.

Discuss your spirituality.

Absolutely no bickering.

[traz]

I consider myself somewhat spiritual, but not especially religious

[guids]

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I consider myself somewhat spiritual, but not especially religious

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Im not honest, but you're interesting



There is something greater, what it is? I dont know. Im not religious in the least, but hate when people bash it. Atheism imo = a religion. I really like the way the jews think about things

[traz]

Well. I consider myself spiritual in the sense that I think there are greater powers, there is a soul and more to life than just the body, the purpose of life, being truthful to yourself, being honorable, and those sorts of things, which is what i associate with spiritual.

I don't perscribe to any religion, so that's what i would call not especially religious.

If you consider atheism to be religious, then I suppose everyone is religious, so it becomes moot?

I believe in a higher power, but I do not think that equates to being religious.

[hexag1]

[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way off.
Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs.
Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology.
As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way off.
Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs.
Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology.
As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part.

[/ QUOTE ]


re·li·gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


As far as the definition of religion, atheism is one imo. Atheist get just as fervent and unwilling to budge their beliefs, in probably about teh same ratio as christians. there are tons of similarities imo, and I fail to really see the difference.

[tpir]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way off.
Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs.
Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology.
As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part.

[/ QUOTE ]


re·li·gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


As far as the definition of religion, atheism is one imo. Atheist get just as fervent and unwilling to budge their beliefs, in probably about teh same ratio as christians. there are tons of similarities imo, and I fail to really see the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are confusing anti-theism with atheism. Actual atheists do not have any "beliefs"... they just think there isn't enough evidence at the moment for God. If evidence comes along, they will stop being atheists. There is no certainty or dogmatism involved.

Very common misconception. As you were... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[hexag1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way off.
Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs.
Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology.
As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part.

[/ QUOTE ]


re·li·gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


As far as the definition of religion, atheism is one imo. Atheist get just as fervent and unwilling to budge their beliefs, in probably about teh same ratio as christians. there are tons of similarities imo, and I fail to really see the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

could you explain to me how atheism fits any of the definitions above?
1.does atheism say anything about the nature or purpose of the universe? no. does it consider the universe a creation of a superhuman agency/agencies (i.e. god/gods) no. does it involve ritual observances or lay down moral codes? no. so def. 1 doesn't fit
2.is atheism a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices agreed upon by a number of persons/sects? No, atheism doesn't have any set beliefs. It tends toward an absence of belief in the supernatural, but this is not the same thing. Is it generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects? Well there are a number of atheist organizations, but the existence of the philosophy of atheism is quite independent of them.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of atheists? no. as above, atheism isnt really defined or bounded by a group of people.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. Nobody devotes their lives to atheism
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. If you can find me any atheist rituals, id like to see them. Note that this definition includes faith, which atheism rejects.
6. I suppose that this definition is the toughest to refute. But look at how broad it is, if a religion is 'something one believes in and follows devotedly' then isn't being a Green Bay fan a religion? How about vegetarianism? A lot of people believe in vegetarianism, and follow it devotedly, but it is hardly a religion.

While were on the subject of definitions, what does the dictionary say about atheism?

atheism
1.Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods.
2.Disbelief in the existence of God or gods.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way off.
Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs.
Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology.
As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part.

[/ QUOTE ]


re·li·gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


As far as the definition of religion, atheism is one imo. Atheist get just as fervent and unwilling to budge their beliefs, in probably about teh same ratio as christians. there are tons of similarities imo, and I fail to really see the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that constitute a religion? Do you think science is a religion?

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way off.
Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs.
Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology.
As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's way off. There is a word for non-believing - it's atheism. And in fact it can be just as dogmatic as any "positive" religion. It's a strong belief in a thought about god, just like other religions. Devotees can believe with incredibly strong convictions, just like other religions. This is completely different from "not being an astrologer".