have I been playing my flush draws wrong

[iambusto]

I know its a very basic question but i suspect that I have been playing my flush draws wrong all the 2 years i have been playing.

My question is:

1) how many players do i need to be "along with me" in the hand for the flush draw call to be correct (even if i suspect i am behind).

2) I always thought flush draw is 9 outs that means 4:1 approximately to get it in the next card. That means do I need 4 players along with me or 3 players ?? for this discussion we would consider that if i make a pair i still lose ie i can only win by making the flush.

3) However, if there was a situation where people are going to be all in then obviously on the flop, i should consider using the odds for 2 streets together and not just the next street. How many players then do i need to go along with me for my flush draw?

I would really appreciate any help you guys give.

[Teddie]

It has nothing to do with the number of players who are in the pot but the amount of money in the pot.

If its a 4:1 shot, you have to call a bet that bigger then 4:1. i.e. If someone bets $1 into a $4 pot, you can call becuase you call getting 5:1 to call. $1 into $2 and you cant call.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
If its a 4:1 shot, you have to call a bet that bigger then 4:1. i.e. If someone bets $1 into a $4 pot, you can call becuase you call getting 5:1 to call. $1 into $2 and you cant call.

[/ QUOTE ]

The basic math is dead on & technically correct, but there's a lot more to it than that. If you're holding a 4:1 draw & getting just 3:1, for example, you can sometimes call if you estimate that you will win enough chips after making your hand to offset your immediate pot odds deficit. Implied odds. You can also include any chips which you are confident the remaining players to act will put into the pot on this street, if that applies. But if there are other players yet to act behind you, then you also have to consider the possibility that they will raise.

And if we're talking about NL, if calling the flop bet will pot commit you on the turn, then you have to consider whether pushing immediately (or merely raising if you're more deep-stacked) will give you enough folding equity, combined with your draw odds when you're called, to have a positive expectancy. If we're talking about limit, you have to consider whether raising will buy you a free card (or, if there are multiple other players in the pot, if your draw alone gives you enough equity to raise for value).

Or a short answer for the OP, "it depends". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[cmoke]

More things to consider:

the type of villians you are up against- are you going against loose and aggressive types that will pay you off when you hit your hand or will they slow way down and even maybe fold when that thrid spade hits:

Also what type of flush are you going for- AXs and KXs should be the only flushes worth getting into a BIG pot over. I know flush over flush should be rare, but it happens everyday of the year.

my two scents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[iambusto]

I am still confused. Lets go over a real hand example that happend day before yesterday.

2-5 NL, 300$ buy in.

Hero stack size: 515 (Ah-9h), 2 other players involved in the hand cover heros stack.

Preflop: 4 limpers, BB raises to 15$, 6 people to the flop.

flop(90$): Kh-8h-2s

BB bets 50, MP1 calls, Hero calls with nutflush draw, SB checkraises all in for 1000, BB folds, MP1 calls 800,
Hero ??

I have to put my whole stack ie 450 in to win 1140 (90$ preflop+ 150 flop action before allin raise + 900 by 2 all in players)

Should I have called here or folded ?? I am getting 1140:450

ie 2.5:1 here. I put SB on K-8 for 2 pair, MP1 is loose and can have anything.

I really appreciate your help here guys. I have been winning so far in NL (1000 hours live) but it seems like i have been playing my flush draws wrong all my life.

[kmak]

[ QUOTE ]
I am still confused. Lets go over a real hand example that happend day before yesterday.

2-5 NL, 300$ buy in.

Hero stack size: 515 (Ah-9h), 2 other players involved in the hand cover heros stack.

Preflop: 4 limpers, BB raises to 15$, 6 people to the flop.

flop(90$): Kh-8h-2s

BB bets 50, MP1 calls, Hero calls with nutflush draw, SB checkraises all in for 1000, BB folds, MP1 calls 800,
Hero ??

I have to put my whole stack ie 450 in to win 1140 (90$ preflop+ 150 flop action before allin raise + 900 by 2 all in players)

Should I have called here or folded ?? I am getting 1140:450

ie 2.5:1 here. I put SB on K-8 for 2 pair, MP1 is loose and can have anything.

I really appreciate your help here guys. I have been winning so far in NL (1000 hours live) but it seems like i have been playing my flush draws wrong all my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of making the flush by the river for you is 1.9 to 1 or 35%. However, if both of your opponents have gone all-in, indicating strong hands - at least one is likely to have a set with the chance of improving to a full house to the river. The odds for a set improving to a full house by the river is 2 to 1, or 33%. As an estimate, one third of the time you make your flush by the river an opponent makes a full house, beating you, so your actual probability of winning is probably closer to 25% (or 3 to 1).

Thus, if you believe one of your opponents has a set, then you are getting 2.5 to 1 to call a bet that you are closer to 3 to 1 to win. If neither opponent has a set (say AA and QQ), then you are 1.9 to 1 to win and it is a good call.

As is typically the case, it will depend on your read of your opponents.

[Catt]

Lots of folks are exploring the decision to call the all-in with your nut flush draw -- I'm not going to add any comment to that discussion. I just wanted to point out something else in your posts that I think is very important to becoming a better player.

[ QUOTE ]
I am still confused. Lets go over a real hand example that happend day before yesterday.

[. . .]

I put SB on K-8 for 2 pair, MP1 is loose and can have anything.

[. . .]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a big mistake in your thought process to somehow narrow SB's likely hand range to K8; I also think it's a big mistake to conclude that MP can have anything because he's loose -- he just put in 2 buy-ins. A big key to playing solid poker is to start thinking in terms of hand ranges, start understanding through repetition and study how those predicted hand ranges, in the aggregate, compare to your hand and other opponents' hand ranges, and how all that in turn relates to your immediate decision. Narrowing the aggressor in a hand to a likely single hand (and only 9 combos given the flop) after some unremarkable pre-flop action, and concluding that the other player in the hand could have anything despite the amount of money invested in this one hand seems to highlight an area of your game that you would be well served to devote more attention and study. Nail down your concerns / confusion on how to calculate odds (immediate, implied, effective) on the flop with a FD, but then invest some time on the mechanics of hand reading and range evaluation -- the later will permit you to make sharper decisions post flop in hand after hand once the pot / implied odds calcs become absolutely second nature to you (so much so that they require comparatively less brain power).

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

flop(90$): Kh-8h-2s

BB bets 50, MP1 calls, Hero calls with nutflush draw, SB checkraises all in for 1000, BB folds, MP1 calls 800,
Hero ??

I have to put my whole stack ie 450 in to win 1140 (90$ preflop+ 150 flop action before allin raise + 900 by 2 all in players)

[/ QUOTE ]
$200 went in on the flop before the push. The BB, MP1, Hero, and SB put in $50 to match the BB's bet before the SB's raise. So you risk $450 to get back $1190+$450.

You need to win 27.4% to justify a call. You should easily win that much, since you can't be sure you are up against a set. You can win with a flush, running two pair or trips, and you might only need to catch an ace, though that possibility should be discounted given the action.

[iambusto]

[ QUOTE ]
It has nothing to do with the number of players who are in the pot but the amount of money in the pot.

If its a 4:1 shot, you have to call a bet that bigger then 4:1. i.e. If someone bets $1 into a $4 pot, you can call becuase you call getting 5:1 to call. $1 into $2 and you cant call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me ask a question differently. assuming there is no money in the pot (just blinds which is negligible in NL)

If someone bets 50$ and someone calls 50$, so the pot has 100$.

am i getting 2:1 here or 3:1 here. My buddy explained that when i win, i will be winning 150$ and not 100$ so i am getting 3:1 here. I have been playing by calculating this situation as 2:1 here.

Thanks you so much guys. I am freaked out that i have been playing such a basic thing wrong all my life !!