Razz- Besides folding 6th, did I make other mistakes?

[keebler61]

Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (10.00 SB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (7.00 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls $0.20 (all-in)
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

6th Street - (14.40 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___all-in
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

River - (18.40 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___all-in
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (20.40 BB - $10.20)
I know I probably should have C/C'd sixth in hindsight, but did I make any other mistakes in this hand?

[tx4allthefish]

On 5th, since you close the action, I prob wouldnt raise.
You are not knocking anyone out here and you are not necessarily
solidly ahead of seat 5 or seat 8. If you were in a position to
charge them 2 bets on 5th I would have raised.

As you said I would probably have c-c 6th.

Tx.

[Aardvarkvan]

I like the raise on 3rd, but note that with all those low door cards & multiway action it's gonna take a strong hand to win this; surely a 9-high won't suffice, and with the dead 8's figure you're drawing to a 7. So the dead 3s (which are helping your opponents) mean you want to hit two of: A, 6, 7 by the River.

Thus 4th is bad news -- losing that A sucks almost as much as catching the T. Call's pretty obvious tho.

On 5th, your raise would seem correct if it was heads up against Seat 5 (your draw leads his made rough 9), but with Seat 8 in there (having already called a bet), and considering that you just lost a 6, the raise looks spewish.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the raise on 3rd, but note that with all those low door cards & multiway action it's gonna take a strong hand to win this; surely a 9-high won't suffice, and with the dead 8's figure you're drawing to a 7. So the dead 3s (which are helping your opponents) mean you want to hit two of: A, 6, 7 by the River.

Thus 4th is bad news -- losing that A sucks almost as much as catching the T. Call's pretty obvious tho.

On 5th, your raise would seem correct if it was heads up against Seat 5 (your draw leads his made rough 9), but with Seat 8 in there (having already called a bet), and considering that you just lost a 6, the raise looks spewish.

[/ QUOTE ]

While it's true that a lot of the hero's potential outs are dead in this hand, he doesn't need a whole lot of outs to have +equity in a multiway pot on 5th street. This is because there are two cards to come and if he hits and gets paid off 4-ways (or 3-ways since one villain was almost all in), then he doesn't have to take the pot >50% of the time to show a profit on additional bets and raises.

In this hand, the raise on 5th st isn't spewish at all, in fact it's a good 3-way value raise. Seat 5 is basically all in, so to simulate the hero's equity in the side pot we simulate his hand vs. the two live villains and count seat 5's cards as dead. Results:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...-3%29qj&h5=

(note: I reversed the order of the 3 and the 6 for seat 8 in the sim since it's very unlikely he could have paired 6's and called even 1 bet on 5th st, so I'm excluding a 6 from his hole card range instead of a 3)

As long as seat 7 insists on calling, the hero should keep raising on 5th st. since the hero will be a coin flip with seat 8's range.

[Aardvarkvan]

I been schooled! Thanks SG, good stuff.

[DJ Sensei]

yo lets raise 4th. the only guy we're worried much about is gonna be all-in soon no matter what happens, so lets build up a pot with those other dudes who we're beating up right now. right?

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the raise on 3rd, but note that with all those low door cards & multiway action it's gonna take a strong hand to win this; surely a 9-high won't suffice, and with the dead 8's figure you're drawing to a 7. So the dead 3s (which are helping your opponents) mean you want to hit two of: A, 6, 7 by the River.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, because of you have 5 dead cards on 3rd, the reraise on 3rd is not so good because you are actually -EV in a 3 way pot against the two 2 3s ( Propokertools)

Your opponents have a playing advantage on later round because they are less likely than you to pair their doorcards. Also, by just calling you add deception, and make it easier to get away form your hand if you brick on later streets and other people catch good. Lastly, in a 4 or 5 way pot (which may result if you don't reraise) you probably have a slight equity edge ( Propokertools )

Carlos

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the raise on 3rd, but note that with all those low door cards & multiway action it's gonna take a strong hand to win this; surely a 9-high won't suffice, and with the dead 8's figure you're drawing to a 7. So the dead 3s (which are helping your opponents) mean you want to hit two of: A, 6, 7 by the River.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, because of you have 5 dead cards on 3rd, the reraise on 3rd is not so good because you are actually -EV in a 3 way pot against the two 2 3s ( Propokertools)

Your opponents have a playing advantage on later round because they are less likely than you to pair their doorcards. Also, by just calling you add deception, and make it easier to get away form your hand if you brick on later streets and other people catch good. Lastly, in a 4 or 5 way pot (which may result if you don't reraise) you probably have a slight equity edge ( Propokertools )

Carlos

[/ QUOTE ]

A few notes -

1) the hero isn't re-raising on 3rd. He is raising the completion.

2) Another reason why it doesn't pay to raise 3rd street is because the opponents are prone to calling on 4th if the do not improve regardless of the size of the pot. The pot is already large enough that it may dictate a peel on 4th if you read hands well, you can skip the raise and therefore avoid bloating the pot. Oddly this argument is the same one I use for raising on 3rd when I am a humongous favorite - in that case I to tie the opponents to the pot when they are drawing dead on future streets.

PS - good comments in this thread from the usual suspects.

[betgo]

Lead out on 4th and seat 5 will almost certainly raise. This way you force the others out or to play to chase. Jam 4th street. You are likely to be significantly ahead of a;; but the short stack.

[keebler61]

Thanks for the informative posts, everyone, particularly SG, thanks for putting the time in.