turn 3 bet in blind battle

[Aces McGee]

bad online 3/6 game. I'm playing with villain on a couple of tables, and on both, I'm getting killed. I'm playing pretty aggressively preflop, but not hitting much of anything postflop. I have nothing noteworthy on villain, and no numbers since I don't use stats.

Folds to me on the button and I open with 44. Villain calls in the BB.

Flop is 653 rainbow. Check, I bet, call.

Turn is a jack, putting two hearts on board. Check, I bet, villain checkraises, and I 3-bet.

-McGee

[Allday Everyday]

I always struggle in these situations. They're difficult I guess. I don't fully understand your play. Is this a 'free SD turn raise'? We check the river UI?

I don't think I like this play (in a vacuum anyway). Given the low, and drawy board and the blind battle context, I don't think villain will fold much. And if he if bluffing, I think we should let him bluff again on the river. If he is value betting, I think there are a lot of hands we can raise him with on the river.

If villain calls turn, and checks river, I obv bet my straight or set and check through the rest.

[Harv72b]

I obviously can't say this for sure in regards to this villain, but he shouldn't ever be folding a better hand to your 3bet. On the other hand, he is going to be doing this from time to time with a hearts draw or possibly even ace high...maybe even one of the other fours. This assuming that he's halfway decent/aggressive.

Honestly, I think I'd rather just call the c/r & call a non-heart river which doesn't improve me. Let him fire again with a busted draw or AQ or whatever. If the river is a "blank" heart, say the 9 or something, maybe call 1 as well.

And why on earth wouldn't you use stats?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Aces McGee]

Hi Harv

I'm going to wait a bit to respond regarding the hand, but as for why I don't use stats, I just never was able to get comfortable using them. I never found a setup where I could make truly useful observations within the time I needed to act on my hand, and I found that using them was a bit of a crutch; that is, I paid less attention at the table because of them. I found that I could get much better reads without stats.

Of course, last night I wasn't paying attention anyway because one of my housemates was watching "Running With Scissors," and I kept looking up to see what ridiculous thing was going on at the time. Man, that's a weird movie.

-McGee

[jstill]

i always hear the stats crutch line, if thats true just use more discipline, have the stats up but pay attention and make reads just as much as when u dont have stats.

fwiw the two sites ive played well over 95% of my hands on have not been PT compatible.

the hands people fold here are pairs less than J, most of which cr the flop and if they didnt they usually wouldnt cr this turn. If hes bluffing I say let him bluff the river. calling here and calling a river bet is definitely better than 3betting vs a draw and cking behind on the river (assuming he usually follows thru on the river since we get a bet in with full equity vs putting in 2 wiht partial equity when he probably has like 30% equity). And he never folds JT if hes bad like u say. Plus 3betting hurts ur implied odds when u make a straight/ set on the river and he would have bet called.

the only time i mite consider ur line was if villain was the type to cr bluff/ semi bluff turns often but didnt fire again on the river frequently when being called on the turn (and I mean hed cr bluff then not follow thru far less than the norm of villains or was optimal, and hed normally cr the flop with a flopped monster so his range with this line was weighted towards turned TP or semi bluffs almost exclusively).

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
as for why I don't use stats, I just never was able to get comfortable using them. I never found a setup where I could make truly useful observations within the time I needed to act on my hand, and I found that using them was a bit of a crutch; that is, I paid less attention at the table because of them. I found that I could get much better reads without stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, but the trick is to train yourself to use the stats and observe your opponents/develop more specific reads. A lot of people treat PT stats as being the whole of an online read, but that's simply not true...they are part of the read, and enable you to make fairly routine decisions quickly (i.e., should I reraise, fold, or coldcall with AJs against this guy's PFR?), but the read itself should also include all the specific information you're looking for, and that we should all be taking notes on.

I mean, play whatever way feels best to you--it's obviously worked so far & I know you don't suck. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I just look at it being sort of like an old-school business owner who refuses to use computers because they're cold & impersonal & he's survived all this time without them. Sure, that may be true, but he can still incorporate them into his business while doing the same things he's been doing over the years...and they'll probably enable him to spend more time doing those things. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Niediam]

I will do this sometimes if villian is the type to make this play with draws/air. Unless you improve I don't bet the the river.

Like Harv said you are rarely if ever going to get a villian to fold a better hand so no reason to make this play against a straightforward opponent.

[Aces McGee]

All,

When evaluating this play, don't forget that I am also drawing to a straight.

-McGee

[BigBadBabar]

mcgee,

what % of the time do you think, not counting the straight draw, that you're currently ahead? if this percentage is nonlarge, why would a 3bet to charge yourself to draw be optimal if he has a showdownable hand? it mostly depends on your read of if he's bluffing and can fold, in which case you can make this play with almost any two cards.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
what % of the time do you think, not counting the straight draw, that you're currently ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

Babar, good question. Let me ask you something first. In my spot, after having been check-raised on the turn, how often are you folding to a river bet?

-McGee