Absolute Certainty

[DeadlyGambit]

Does it exist? Is anything absolute?

My friend and I were debating this a couple weeks ago, and lately I've been thinking about it alot. My friend argued that NOTHING is absolute. That is, we can never be certain that something is undoubtedly and absolutely true. However, I think that some things can be known with absolute certainty, namely those that are in the realm of mathematics and deductive logic. For example, 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4, or "All A are B and All B are C, therfore All A are C". These things we know with absolute certainty, right? Granted these examples seem, I don't really know how to put it, far removed from everyday reality. Like looking at an argument form such as the one above and saying it is absolutely true seems far different than observing something in the natural world and being able to say the same thing about it. I'm not quite sure of what I'm trying to say here [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

Anyway, what are your thoughts on absolute certainty? Can we ever know anything for sure?

-Matt

[Peter666]

"My friend argued that NOTHING is absolute."

Is he absolutely sure about that?

[Siegmund]

I tend to see it the same way as the OP does.

The only problem with referring to real-world events in absolutes is that people have a tendency to leave off a few conditions, and give only the "then" part of what's really an if-then statement.

For instance, "There are at least two cards of the same suit in every poker hand" is a real-world statement based on the mathematical fact "if five cards are chosen from a standard 52-card pack (thirteen of each of four suits), there will be at least two cards of the same suit among the chosen cards" -- but the real-world possibility of running across a poker game with a bug, or playing badugi, or a defective deck gets glossed over in everyday speech to save time.

There are a heck of a lot of absolutely true statements out there, but most of them are if-thens and the real world sometimes fails to satisfy the if, and the real flaw in our reason is assuming the "if" is always satisfied.

[bunny]

I dont know that mathematical statements would satisfy your friend. Perhaps you have made a deductive error.

I cant see how he could disagree with the claim you have absolute knowledge of your subjective experiences though. You know what it's like for you to experience pain. You know what it feels like to see blue. Etcetera. I think these are examples of absolute certainty - though not very helpful ones as they dont provide common ground with anyone else.

[DeadlyGambit]

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I dont know that mathematical statements would satisfy your friend. Perhaps you have made a deductive error.

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But mathematical statements are absolute, no? Adding 2 and 2 will ALWAYS produce 4, the solution will never be any different. This is at least one thing that we can be absolutely certain of. You don't agree?

[bunny]

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I dont know that mathematical statements would satisfy your friend. Perhaps you have made a deductive error.

[/ QUOTE ]

But mathematical statements are absolute, no? Adding 2 and 2 will ALWAYS produce 4, the solution will never be any different. This is at least one thing that we can be absolutely certain of. You don't agree?

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I do agree I was speculating on what a complete skeptic regarding certain knowledge might claim. It seems to me that an extreme nit might point out there is an admittedly slim possibility that everyone who has ever checked has coincidentally made an identical error and that 2+2 does not in fact equal 4 (despite the fact that we all think it does). They may say this miniscule possibility precludes certainty.

[DeadlyGambit]

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I was speculating on what a complete skeptic regarding certain knowledge might claim.

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Ahhh, how coincidental. We must have the same friend. He did in fact say something close to what you mentioned. It is extremely difficult to have a philosophical discussion with a complete skeptic. He kept going back to the old "but how do you know for sure" thing. I remember him also questioning the orgin of numbers and counting when I brought up the whole math thing. However the details are a bit fuzzy now thanks to the brewhaha we imbibed during the conversation [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img].

[Piers]

Absolute certainty is a state of mind. Most people are absolutely certain of a lot of stuff, much of it incorrect.

[LA_Price]

The statement "nothing is absolute" is an absolute statement is it not? So doesn't that nullify itself?

[Matt R.]

I exist?