Is it viable to fold KK preflop against a super TAG with AA?

Caerbannog1 · #1 07-10-2007, 01:14 PM

Villan 1 is 8/8/~/32
Villan 2 is 19/19/36

I know only a few hands so its a tough decision, at the end of the they could only be doing it with QQ, KK, AK, AA. Am I correct to play here? This is the biggest flaw in my game, so please only post with advice if you are a constant and experienced winner.

Hand 1:

Poker Stars
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.10/$0.25 Blinds
5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $38.70
BB: $50.35
UTG: $13.00
Hero (CO): $28.50
BTN: $24.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, BTN calls $1.25, SB raises to $5.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $20.00, BTN folds, SB raises all-in to $38.70, Hero calls all-in for $8.50
Uncalled bet of $10.20 returned to SB

Flop: ($58.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Turn: ($58.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

River: ($58.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $58.75 ($2 Rake)

Hand 2:

Poker Stars
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.10/$0.25 Blinds
5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $24.75
BB: $15.95
UTG: $23.50
CO: $20.60
Hero (BTN): $25.70

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.00, SB raises to $3.35, BB folds, Hero raises to $13.40, SB raises all-in to $24.75, Hero calls $11.35

Flop: ($49.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Turn: ($49.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($49.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $49.75 ($2 Rake)

skiller3 · #2 07-10-2007, 01:19 PM

I've never folded KK preflop at microstakes. If the first guy is a true 8/8 it starts to get close. I don't really know, but I get all-in preflop in these scenarios.

Caerbannog1 · #3 07-10-2007, 01:33 PM

It can be a tough decision. Like you say, you never throw KK away at microstakes, I to have this attitude, however not all are muppets. It is a shame when you see all the "poker strategy" videos out there that say never throw away KK at microstakes. I have learned that it is actualy viable to do so sometimes.

I would much rarther throw my KK away and donate 4xBB or so, rarther than donate my whole stack. Im not being arogant like the majority of people in this forum... or even the majority of poker players, when I say that this is really the only evidant flaw in my game.

I think it is a real shame how self proclaimed masters of the game preach advice, even though they themselves are loosing players. I have lost a lot of money through ill advice, and thankfully I am now starting to understand each indidual situation more clearly.

Warteen · #4 07-10-2007, 01:35 PM

See FAQ before posting please.

Caerbannog1 · #5 07-10-2007, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
See FAQ before posting please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to the Villan result in the title?

Sorry. I thought it would be better for the topic, seeing as I was trying to dicuss a KK vs AA situation rarther than just a KK vs bets.

Iwineverypot · #6 07-10-2007, 02:07 PM

Im not so sure you really understand the math and reasoning behind folding KK preflop. You do realize if you incorrectly fold it vs. AK or QQ you are losing HUGE EV, right? I myself recently have had some spots with KK where in the back of my head I put a nit on Aces, but he ended up having QQ. I know isolated examples dont mean much, but like I said, every single time you incorrectly fold you are missing out huge, and at micros its so hard to put a random villian on EXACTLY ONE HAND. Folding KK preflop takes an extreme read, i.e. you have seen the guy flat call alot and NOT reraise hands like QQ and AK. If you don't have a very precise read, you better not EVER Fold KK preflop for 100bb's or less.

Warteen · #7 07-10-2007, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See FAQ before posting please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to the Villan result in the title?

Sorry. I thought it would be better for the topic, seeing as I was trying to dicuss a KK vs AA situation rarther than just a KK vs bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bit:

[ QUOTE ]
Q: Okay, so I raise 4xBB preflop with Kings and the player to my immediate left raises. Then another player goes all in. Do I fold?

A: Depends on the opponents. Folding Kings preflop in fear of Aces isn't a liked topic in the forum. Here are some threads that deal with the subject of Kings Vs. potential Aces.

Click here, here, and here.

Sometimes laying Kings down preflop is correct. Most of the time it is not. There is roughly a 3.4% chance, at a full table, that your Kings are up against Aces. Make a decision and go with your instinct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question has already been asked... a lot.

bkar824 · #8 07-10-2007, 01:25 PM

Just think about the situation everytime you get into it. First, on there final shove, first ask yourself what the pot odds are (I mean, you have KK so you're going to be 3 betting PF 90% of the time.) The first hand looks like 8 dollars in a 48 dollar pot. That's 6:1. Simple call with such good odds. You could be up against QQ,KK,AK,AA so you're ahead enough to call with 6:1. The second one you're getting 3+:1, so I think you can still make this call. Remember you have the second nuts here. I've found that calling with KK preflop with 3:1 or better odds is a profitable play in microstakes. If this were 2/4 or 3/6 I would tell you to save the dough and get out in the second and call the first. KK vrs AA is a classic debate in poker. People go broke with KK against AA all the time and say they couldn't have folded it, but people also go broke with QQ against KK too :-P. I just think that with 3:1 in microstakes it's an autocall with KK.

Caerbannog1 · #9 07-10-2007, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just think about the situation everytime you get into it. First, on there final shove, first ask yourself what the pot odds are (I mean, you have KK so you're going to be 3 betting PF 90% of the time.) The first hand looks like 8 dollars in a 48 dollar pot. That's 6:1. Simple call with such good odds. You could be up against QQ,KK,AK,AA so you're ahead enough to call with 6:1. The second one you're getting 3+:1, so I think you can still make this call. Remember you have the second nuts here. I've found that calling with KK preflop with 3:1 or better odds is a profitable play in microstakes. If this were 2/4 or 3/6 I would tell you to save the dough and get out in the second and call the first. KK vrs AA is a classic debate in poker. People go broke with KK against AA all the time and say they couldn't have folded it, but people also go broke with QQ against KK too :-P. I just think that with 3:1 in microstakes it's an autocall with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think calling in these situations is worthwhile, regarldess of pot odds.

For hand 1, he is going to continuation bet here 100% of the time, putting me in the exact same situation, except I now have $5 invested and there maybe another villan behind me. Looking back I should just trust my instincts here and fold... Something I am working on after all the months of bad advice from loosing players.

In hand 2, I maybe could smooth call here, however he could be thinking I am button stealing and trying to resteal. Because I had not played enough hands with him it is hand to tell if he has a hand or is restealing.

If he is restealing, then obviously smooth call and induce a bluff, however he could have a hand like TT and willing to play for his stack, seeing as I had been stealing his blinds a lot.

I think in Hand 2, due to the stealing the blinds situation, it is more viabley correct to play my KK fast as the chances of him having are significantly less than Hand 1.

WarhammerIIC · #10 07-10-2007, 01:55 PM

In both situations, the re-raise you have to call is less than what you just re-raised. How the hell are you going to fold getting those kind of pot odds? You're getting like 3-to-1 in both hands. You're 5-to-1 against AA, and you can't be 100% sure they have it. Easy calls.