Proper shuffling concerns

[GeniusToad]

I didn't see any topics regarding this in the first several pages of the forum, so I apoligize if this has been covered.

In our home game I'm often seeing absolutely terrible shuffling by most of the players. They rarely seem to care about it and I am typically the only one making comments. I try not to say too much as I know this annoys the other players and makes me look like a control freak. I've even been accused of cheating because I stare at the deck when certain players shuffle (they think I'm possibly scanning the cards - which I suppose is a valid concern) since I'm just appauled at how terribly they're doing it. My concern is that the players will often shuffle in "clumps" and not thoroughly through all the cards. To make matters worse, they only shuffle the deck two or three times and then cut and deal. It seems that much of the statistical analysis applied to hands is based on a "random" shuffle (or am I wrong about this?) and I'm wondering if this is possible with sloppy home game style shuffles. I read once somewhere that a deck is truly random when properly shuffled seven times. I don't know how this number was arrived at or if its even valid but it concerns me nonetheless since seven is still much more than two or three. Is this poor shuffling affecting anything at all or should I just play my position, focus on my reads, and not worry about the cards until they're in my hands?

On another note, I've heard from other threads here that the only good auto-shufflers are in casinos and are very pricey.

Is this whole thing in my head or should I start our next game with a brief clinic on shuffling? Thanks.

[RAHZero]

Three times is plenty enough to get a random shuffle as long as the cards are shuffled properly. I've never heard the seven times idea, but you may actually be thinking of the fact that when a deck of cards is shuffled perfectly seven times, it ends up in the exact same order that it started in.

[gusmahler]

Why not volunteer to do the shuffling? Or (probably less likely to be objected to), have two designated shufflers, you and whoever you think is the best shuffler. Assuming you guys use two-decks, once a hand is over, have the dealer gather the cards and give it to a shuffler. The other shuffler gives the already shuffled deck to the new dealer.

As for the number of shuffles, this Wikipedia article says you need 5-7 shuffles to make it random.

And the casino shufflers cost $10k or so each and I don't know if just anyone can buy one.

[GeniusToad]

thanks for the link and ideas. very helpful.

[TomHimself]

get plastic cards (copags), i suck at shuffling paper cards but do fine with kems or copags

[steveshoe]

It is hard to do a scramble if you are using 2 decks of cards. Once the chips and cards are cleared, the next dealer is off and running.

At least the cards are being shuffled well once an orbit when you are the dealer.

[Banks2334]

[ QUOTE ]
Three times is plenty enough to get a random shuffle as long as the cards are shuffled properly. I've never heard the seven times idea, but you may actually be thinking of the fact that when a deck of cards is shuffled perfectly seven times, it ends up in the exact same order that it started in.

[/ QUOTE ]
7 is correct.

[psandman]

A standard casino poker shuffle is scramble, riffle, riffle, strip, riffle. (or scramble rifle, strip, riffle, Riffle). followed by a cut.

Riffling 7 times is ridiculous and takes to much time. the most important part of the shuffle I believe is the scramble. Many people in home games don't like to scramble. Casino dealers usually abbreviate the scramble or skip it to save time, but even a short scramble is very helpful.

Remember also that the goal of shuffling isn't to make the cards random (random doesn't exist) the goal is to make them unpredictable.

[GeniusToad]

[ QUOTE ]


Remember also that the goal of shuffling isn't to make the cards random (random doesn't exist) the goal is to make them unpredictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. i guess i meant as close to "random" as possible but i see what you mean. yes, 7 seems a little excessive but i think 4 or 5 certainly beats 2 or 3. one thing we haven't been doing at all is the scramble. i'll be sure to mix that in to my routine.

danke.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Riffling 7 times is ridiculous and takes to much time.


[/ QUOTE ]
Using easy to shuffle cards (plastic) and using the table riffle shuffle (see http://www.pokerology.com/articles/howtoshuffle.htm ), 7 riffs can be done in a jiffy. Unfortunately, everyone else in my home game uses the riffle shuffle with a cascade finish, which takes a lot longer. The riffle shuffle is actually harder to do than the table riffle shuffle (I don't even know how to do the cascase finish) so I don't know why most people I shuffle with use that method.