TPGK two cold.

jeanbaptiste36 · #1 07-02-2007, 09:12 AM

Another hand in my little multitabling experiment.

Flop donker (94/45/10/0.6)
Flop raiser (26/17/2.33)

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero...

infinity235 · #2 07-02-2007, 09:36 AM

Odds: 1:7
Board: Coordinated, two-flush and two-straight
Strength of hand: TPGK, mediocre holding
Reverse Implied Odds: 1:99999999999999999999999999999999999

Fold.

Bona · #3 07-02-2007, 09:40 AM

I don't like it.

Preflop, meh, ok. Quite a few would call 2 with it. I might not but in this game maybe.

Obviously MP1 could have been playing any 2 preflop but his post flop stats appear pretty passive so he likely hit something. The thing that concerns me about MP1 on this board is a made straight or OESD are very possible. I think we are about 50/50 against MP1.

MP2's range includes an awful lot that beats us and he likes his hand.

I know this pot is getting big but our two outs are maybe outs against this board and we are not necessarily closing the action on the flop.

I'm for folding this here.

NigelSmith · #4 07-02-2007, 09:53 AM

Pre-flop -- if we're going to play, is there any advantage to 3-betting to try and get it heads-up? Or is that my "Mr Hyde" side kicking in?

Bona · #5 07-02-2007, 09:57 AM

I don't think this is a very good spot to get heads up. To me at least, we want to see the flop with lots of company and a big pot with this hand. Best case would be 6+ callers and no raise. IMO.

Xhad · #6 07-02-2007, 10:01 AM

This isn't TPGK. Fold the flop.

EDIT:

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, meh, ok. Quite a few would call 2 with it. I might not but in this game maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you like a 12/6 or something? This is a pretty easy call preflop.

Bona · #7 07-02-2007, 10:13 AM

Nope not that tight. But I don't call 2 a lot either. You should be able to push me around pretty easy in the KOTKP I am keeping weak tight alive [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

NigelSmith · #8 07-02-2007, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a very good spot to get heads up. To me at least, we want to see the flop with lots of company and a big pot with this hand. Best case would be 6+ callers and no raise. IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kind of my point -- we're 8-handed with one fold and no guarantee the blinds will call the raise. Would we rather have 1 villain or 4? 40% equity in a pot with some dead money and the ability to reach a cheap showdown if required, or 20% of a larger pot where anything that hits us can hit the villains just as hard, making it expensive to carry on...

When does "company" become "lots of company"?

Aaron W. · #9 07-02-2007, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a very good spot to get heads up. To me at least, we want to see the flop with lots of company and a big pot with this hand. Best case would be 6+ callers and no raise. IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kind of my point -- we're 8-handed with one fold and no guarantee the blinds will call the raise. Would we rather have 1 villain or 4? 40% equity in a pot with some dead money and the ability to reach a cheap showdown if required, or 20% of a larger pot where anything that hits us can hit the villains just as hard, making it expensive to carry on...

When does "company" become "lots of company"?

[/ QUOTE ]

If a 3-bet could *ACTUALLY* make us heads up, then given the dead money in the pot it would be better to 3-bet to isolate. However, with 4 players in the pot in front of us, the chances of this happening are so small that it's a -EV gamble to try.

I would coldcall if there were 3 voluntarily in the pot in front of me already.

The transition between "company" and "lots of company" varies with the hand you hold and the quality of the skill level of the villains at the table.

Xhad · #10 07-02-2007, 12:00 PM

bona: it's funny you should mention KOTKP because I distinctly remember owning you HU at limit despite running bad, precisely because you were folding so much

Fantam: d'oh, brain fart (though those hands are the least likely of the ones I listed anyway)

Nigel: Mind showing your work on those equity figures (I don't think a 20% equity jump is even close to realistic especially with a sane pfr range in there)? Do you realize that any extra equity you get is going to come from one pair hands that will also put you in reverse implied odds situations, and that reraising screws up your implied odds on your monsters?