58s --- Non-standard play with the big draw --- vs a regular

[cs3]

<font color="blue"> Villain is a regular multitabler. Hes a pretty nitty tag running like 18/6/1.5 over 1k hands or so. other than his PF limp/call syndrome, hes somewhat decent, knows that im pretty aggro postflop, and has a hisory of playing back at my c-bets specifically. usually has a v strong hand when he makes a big bet adn vice versa.

ive been playing my regular 21/17 game, opening anything sorta playable from the CO and button when its folded to me. villain just saw me play this hand immediatley before the hand in question question on the same table:</font>
Stack sizes:
UTG: $109.70
UTG+1: $100
CO: $147.80
Button: $90.10
SB: $91.65
HERO: $127.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $4</font>, SB calls, HERO calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($12, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">HERO bets $10</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $84</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">HERO raises all-in $123.1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button calls all-in $2.1</font>.
Uncalled bets: $37 returned to HERO.
Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($184.2, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $184.2)
River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($184.2, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $184.2)
<font color="blue"> MHIG vs Kc9x </font>
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<font color="blue"> NOW ON TO THE HAND IN QUESTION: </font>
Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $147.80
HERO: $90.1
SB: $91.65
HERO: $218.20
SB: $109.70
BB: $100

Pre-flop: (4 players) HERO is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">HERO raises to $4</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($9, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">HERO bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $17</font>, HERO calls.
<font color="blue"> standard play is obviously to push the flop, but i've been experimenting with taking different lines with my combo draws lately, ESPECIALLY vs regs, and have several resaons for doing so (we can discuss those reasons as well as this particular hand if you wish) </font>

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($43, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $15</font>, HERO????
<font color="blue"> wtf does a 1/3 pot bet mean? best move now?</font>

[Ben86]

I'd take your free card.. i don't know why hes blocking here but id actually be weary of him drawing too. if river blanked and he bet id be tempted to call. If a diamond hit that would be interesting

[orange]

Call turn. Shove if you improve ont he river.

[cs3]

reasoning for calling the turn?
what do you do if river blanks and he checks?
what if he shoves on a river 5, 8, or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? are we happy calling?

i'll give my thoughts on the hand after some more discussion

[SilentNoise]

whenever i raise a REALL weak looking lead (and they MUST know it looks weak too) from a regular they insta shove over the top. so ive come to the conclusion that no regular would ever bet so weak unless they WANTED you to raise. obviously this is disastrous. you are getting great odds on the call so id just call, since raising will probably get you in trouble i think

[cs3]

why would he try to "induce" a raise with a big hand? this a pretty ridic drawy board i think, and i doubt this guy is the type that expects me to raise a bet just becasue it looks weak... remeber what i said about his big bets = big hands in our past history?

are we ever getting paid off on a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river when he checks to us?
and also:
[ QUOTE ]
what do you do if river blanks and he checks?
what if he shoves on a river 5, 8, or ? are we happy calling?


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[SilentNoise]

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why would he try to "induce" a raise with a big hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
The same reason why people bet flop and c/r turn with top set even on drawy boards.

[ QUOTE ]
are we ever getting paid off on a river when he checks to us?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter because we are getting better than the neccessary direct odds to hit our draw. Even if we assume hitting two pair isn't good , which it will be some % of the time.

If he checks river and you miss id probably check behind. your hand has some showdown value. i think if you call the turn your hand looks like a possible draw and he is likely to look you up pretty light (he is hardly ever folding better hands, or calling with worse)

If he shoves the river if you hit, tricky. id be more inclined to call if you hit trips, coz atleast you beat KQ then. If you hit an 8. i dunno really.. i think i go to showdown way too much (26.6% went to showdown and win 50.8% at showdown over 150K hands )but even for me its close.

[Bukem_]

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if we call turn our hand can ONLY be a draw.

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I disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
anyone else think pushing is ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they bet a little stronger, and you are slightly deeper I think its a better way to play a combo draw. But in my exp our fold equity is very low vs probable weak player here. There also aren't many hands you would slowplay on this flop with stacksizes being slighly shallow.

I do like your thought process though. I do the same occasionally vs guys who will attempt to hand read more than they play their own hand, and def know that I can slowplay.



combo draw

[cs3]

thanks for the input everyone.
i shoved and he tanked then folded as his itmer was expiring

[0evg0]

vs 18/6 calling from the bb, 3bet-shove flop