AKs + position + board pair queens = value bet river?

[Christian_Peters]

No specific reads. But table is pretty tight and quite aggressive, but not sick tight and not as aggressive as 0.25/0.50 on FT. Most flops are 3 handed but it's not unusual for PFR to pick up the blinds. Players love to c/r on the big streets and do it with any hand 2p+.
What I mean is that I'll raise PF w/ AQ and get c/r on a turn by T7 when the board is AKT 7.


PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with

A, K.
3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, 1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO raises</font>, 1 fold</font>, SB calls, 1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 9, K, Q (4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 7 (4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) Q (4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero...

[Gib]

why LRR?

I'd just raise PF the 1st time.

River standard bet.

[RemyXO]

(1) I don't get the limp w AKs ...
(2) Bet/call river, take'em to da value laaaaaaand!
(3) WTF are you doing at a table like this? PS has much juicier action at .25/.50, as far as I rememeber

EDIT: Ah, you reraised preflop. Still ... don't get it. Were you positive it was gonna be raised behind?

[Christian_Peters]

[ QUOTE ]
why LRR?

I'd just raise PF the 1st time.

River standard bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok. I knew I was going to take some flak for LRR. Here's my logic:


a) I'm tired of getting big hands HU before the flop.

b) If I raise, they only call with hands that they would have raised with. [and occasionally small pp's]


Everyone says 'AK OMFG raise for value, Sklansky says blah blah blah. SSHE page XX blah blah' Guess what? The online game has changed. Yeah, even .25/.50 and .50/1.

My logic is that I'd rather win a big pot than a small pot. To which someone will say "yes, that's all fine and good, but that says nothing about the expectation of the play." So let's talk about expectation.

The reason people argue for a raise with these premium hands PF is for value, you want to get as many bets into the pot as possible because you have a huge edge. I don't think raising is always the best way to do that. Yeah, even in this hand, even with 1 limper in front of me, even in MP3.

How much is it worth raising AK if it get's the hand HU?
Let's say my equity is .70 against whatever the limper has. When I raise here and it get's HU, I've just won .70SB. Someone might argue that +0.70 SB is better than 0SB, which is true. But you see, I'd prefer the other three players behind to come along with mediocre hands. They aren't calling my raise with A9o or KTo, but many players will invest 1SB from LP with these hands.
And I again make the point that (aside from occasional small PP's) I'm only getting called by hands that would have raised if it were limped to them.

ABC poker isn't difficult. I used to think that it was when I first started. In the beginning of H0Hv1, Harrington lists all the elements of a poker hand [NL tourny], and at the end he says something like "this may seem like a lot, well it is a lot; poker is complicated and you should be grateful that it's complicated. If it were easy, everyone would do it well and no one would make any real money."

Well, in the realm of limit hold'em, I disagree. I think learning ABC poker is quite easy - easy enough for the average person to pick it up. When the table VPIP is &lt;20 and every single hand is being raised or 3-bet PF, and the biggest pots are the occasional 4 or 5 handed pots, this indicates to me that the average online player understands how to play tight-aggressive. And it's true that they are not folding a hand like TP HU against a PFR, it's also true that they are calling down with obviously second best hands far less often.

I'd never ever ever play this way at a B&amp;M, but I'm experimenting with it online. I'm also bluffing more, which has been extremely profitable so far. I'm also limp/calling PF with monsters AA/KK, to help me set up raises and get me more action on the big streets. Yeah, the hands get more difficult to play - it's certainly given my winrate higher variance, but it's fun and most importantly, it seems to be working more than playing ABC poker.

Here's a hand I just played, not 5 minutes ago. Look at this hand - do you seriously think I would get this kind of action on the turn and river if I had raised PF? Do you think MP2 or SB are coming along if I raise EP here?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, Q.
1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K, 6, Q (4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds, SB folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 3 (2 players)</font>
BB bets</font>, Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7 BB) Q (2 players)</font>
BB bets</font>, Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

[kerowo]

Ugh. Really tl;dr. I'm going to hazard that you are wrong. You are giving up too much money not raising quality hands pre-flop. If your raises are being respected too much take advantage of it and open your raising standards until people figure it out. Yes, I get beat a lot by people who limp their monsters than call down with an over pair, but I don't lose as much if they played it correctly and I win more from them when my QTo straightens out because they didn't make it too expensive to be in the pot.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says 'AK OMFG raise for value, Sklansky says blah blah blah. SSHE page XX blah blah' Guess what? The online game has changed. Yeah, even .25/.50 and .50/1.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're asking us for advice why, given that we're a bunch of retard dinosaurs?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
a) I'm tired of getting big hands HU before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. It sucks to be in profitable situations. What evidence do you have that being in a limped pot with AK is better than being in a heads up pot for a raise with AK and position?

[ QUOTE ]
b) If I raise, they only call with hands that they would have raised with. [and occasionally small pp's]

[/ QUOTE ]

And they fold a bunch of hands you want them to fold that they might limp in with given two limpers in front of them. After all, AK is only ace-high before the flop (and it will only be ace-high after 2/3 of the flops).

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says 'AK OMFG raise for value, Sklansky says blah blah blah. SSHE page XX blah blah' Guess what? The online game has changed. Yeah, even .25/.50 and .50/1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has anyone said anything about Sklansky? CP, meet the strawman. He's a good friend of the red herring.

It would make much more sense for you to argue how "the online game" (whatever that means) has changed in such a way to make OVERLIMPING AK more profitable than iso-raising. Good luck with the Pooh-bah dissertation.

[ QUOTE ]
My logic is that I'd rather win a big pot than a small pot. To which someone will say "yes, that's all fine and good, but that says nothing about the expectation of the play." So let's talk about expectation.

The reason people argue for a raise with these premium hands PF is for value, you want to get as many bets into the pot as possible because you have a huge edge. I don't think raising is always the best way to do that. Yeah, even in this hand, even with 1 limper in front of me, even in MP3.

How much is it worth raising AK if it get's the hand HU?
Let's say my equity is .70 against whatever the limper has. When I raise here and it get's HU, I've just won .70SB. Someone might argue that +0.70 SB is better than 0SB, which is true. But you see, I'd prefer the other three players behind to come along with mediocre hands. They aren't calling my raise with A9o or KTo, but many players will invest 1SB from LP with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm... and when there happens to be a hand like A9o behind you, you realize how much LESS LIKELY it is that you're actually going to flop an ace, right? You also realize you decrease your chances of winning the pot UI and without showdown (did you know that AK is only A-high on 2/3 of the flops?). You also discount the times that a hand like Q9s slips in cheaply and draws to a flush when he would have otherwise folded (see above). That same Q9s might even flop a pair of 9s to beat you. Simply put, your argument is an oversimplification that fails to prove anything at all.

[ QUOTE ]
And I again make the point that (aside from occasional small PP's) I'm only getting called by hands that would have raised if it were limped to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are far more hands you want to see fold than hands that concern you when they call. Why are you making such a big deal about these PPs?

[ QUOTE ]
ABC poker isn't difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really, really, really funny.

[ QUOTE ]
I used to think that it was when I first started. In the beginning of H0Hv1, Harrington lists all the elements of a poker hand [NL tourny], and at the end he says something like "this may seem like a lot, well it is a lot; poker is complicated and you should be grateful that it's complicated. If it were easy, everyone would do it well and no one would make any real money."

Well, in the realm of limit hold'em, I disagree. I think learning ABC poker is quite easy - easy enough for the average person to pick it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really, really, really funny.

[ QUOTE ]
When the table VPIP is &lt;20 and every single hand is being raised or 3-bet PF, and the biggest pots are the occasional 4 or 5 handed pots, this indicates to me that the average online player understands how to play tight-aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it just means that they've found a chart.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hand I just played, not 5 minutes ago. Look at this hand - do you seriously think I would get this kind of action on the turn and river if I had raised PF? Do you think MP2 or SB are coming along if I raise EP here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that showing one hand where you flop two pair is a compelling argument? How often do you flop two pair? How often do you flop nothing? How much do you win when you flop nothing in a limped 4-handed pot? How much do you win when you flop nothing in a heads up pot when you raise preflop?

I know what you're trying to do, and I know you have to do this because everyone goes through this phase. You talk about these things as if nobody has every thought about them before, and that what you are talking about is new and insightful and borderline brilliant. Guess what? It's not. It may take you a while to see this, or you may never see it. Keep studying and see what happens.

[BigBadBabar]

i'm starting to think it's someone's gimmick account or a deliberate troll at this point!

[00Snitch]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Aaron W.

Is there no lolcat to express Aaron's great pwnage?

[Christian_Peters]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm starting to think it's someone's gimmick account or a deliberate troll at this point!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trolling. I don't have a gimmick account. I'm not selling anything. I'm sorry if I did something wrong.