an expert and i disagreed on this one...

[mike l.]

commerce 40, roman who is up like 16 racks is in the sb, im on the button, and tilted donk fish who is generally passive awful but has spurts of spastic aggression (in other words standard commerce tilted randomness) is in the hijack. the guy is currently in hate with roman and his runninggoodness.

hijack fish open limps, i raise KTo on the button, roman 3 bets AQo, fish caps it, i fold (not the point im looking to debate, but ill be glad to hear your input), roman calls.

the flop is Q62 rainbow and roman bets, the fish calls.

the turn is another Q. roman bets, fish calls.

the river is an A. roman checks.

the river is the part we disagree on. i think betting is significantly better.

[vmacosta]

I think you phrased this post such that people who like you are gonna tend to agree wityh you and people who don't will try to agree with Roman.

At any rate, I guess I like you because I agree. There is absolutely no reason to emabarrass the fish here with a sexy when you are basically guaranteed a bet from him if he has anything whatsoever. Plus when somebody is getting run over they are sometimes less likely to bet marginal hands on the river when checked to.

As a side note: I know the Commerce fish are a rare cantankerous breed, but I play at a small local club a lot and I think it is decent policy to try and not take lines that maximize the embarrassment of a fish even if it might be giving up on a few dollars of ev.

[DeathDonkey]

Given how the guy hates him I think betting is a bit better but not a ton. Checking lets the guy put in two bets for sure with an ace and one bet with almost anything else that he got to the river with. Betting gets spite called by lots of stuff but the question is how often the fish raises. I am used to being hated for running good and they don't raise me all that often, they just spite call. I'm on the fence.

-DeathDonkey

[mike l.]

i want to state one thing now, though i have lots more to say later:

if this particular fish raises the river with an A (or better) he will at least call a 3 bet 100% of the time. this is not debatable.

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
i want to state one thing now, though i have lots more to say later:

if this particular fish raises the river with an A (or better) he will at least call a 3 bet 100% of the time. this is not debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm also assuming he will sometimes, though rarely, make a super terrible bluff raise. This point is meh though because you could argue both ways.

But this isn't online. He can call and muck if he wants. Just to see if you "sucked out"

[mike l.]

the embarassment factor never crossed my mind. people regularly embarass themselves so badly by acting like 3 year olds that it's a non-issue at commerce. seriously.

im looking at this from a strictly EV standpoint.

[andyfox]

The Commerce "fish" are not a breed. Some are cantankerous and some are lovely. If I were going to make a generalization, however, I would say the better players, by and large, are more likely to be cantankerous than the poorer players.

There may be metgame reasons to not check-raise this river. There are players against whom I will never check-raise the river head-up and I'm sure it's +EV to do so. And Roman might have had terrific reasons for figuring that against this particular player at this particular time in this particular situation, checking was the superior play. I'm assuming Mike wanted a pure EV analysis of this particular hand in isolation.

Knowing nothing other than that this opponent was riled up at Roman's chip collection, I would have advised Roman to bet, thinking his opponent would call the river out of frustration even if his better sense told him his pocket pair was now certainly no good, and that if his opponent had an ace, he might well raise and call a 3-bet, again due to his frustration.

[mike l.]

roman checked and the guy checked and the guy showed KJ and was angry it wasnt good against a boat. i told roman he messed up because the guy would call with that in the state he was in, and roman was shocked that the guy would call. roman said "once that A comes there's nothing he can call me with". i felt good about myself and my poker thinking. sorry this thread wasnt more interesting.

[HOWMANY]

So K high was good to call down with before the A came but once it comes the A somehow ruins his hand?

I hope you don't want me to go to Commerce still because I just got home from playing and should probably sleep but am watching Dean's new Cardrunners vid.

[mike l.]

sorry i forgot to call you no were not going after all. might see you at oceans later.