I make sweet value bets

mrjetguy · #1 06-13-2007, 02:10 AM

I have a decent amount of experience with FR limit, but SH is pretty new to me so take it easy on me. Basically, I think I did everything pretty ok (standard?) untill the river. I was very torn on the river, sadly I am lazy and had no stats/reads on the player. Some people at the table were trying to be tricky, he may have been one of them.

But I guess I just want thoughts on the river. I assumed that at best he had a small pair so the chances of being C/R'd were slim. Yet, I'm not sure what I thought I could beat here. So, probably not a great time to try to make monies. I thought there was a very slight chance that my river bet might knock out a low pocket pair, but not sure how much value that had. All I can really expect to beat here is Ax? So, just quick thoughts would be great, nothing too complicated is needed.

Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (7.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets...

sweetjazz · #2 06-13-2007, 02:14 AM

I don't understand why you raised the flop? There's a good chance you are behind, and if you are ahead, you may as well let him bluff into you with (at best) a four outer.

Given how you got to the river, it's pretty close. If CO is bad and makes bad donk bets with A high and can't find the fold button, a value bet could be in order. Most likely you froze up your opponent who has a small pair, and he's not folding it, so checking behind the river seems to be the right play.

mrjetguy · #3 06-13-2007, 02:24 AM

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I don't understand why you raised the flop? There's a good chance you are behind, and if you are ahead, you may as well let him bluff into you with (at best) a four outer.

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You think he has a king? If I am behind on the flop I would think that I'm behind by only a little. I would have to put him on Ax or pocket pair probably... from the preflop action small to mid pocket pair, a worse Ax, or K/Q/Jx. He could of course have a K, but then I would like to find that out on the flop. I'm not sure, but I thought the flop play was sort of standard, I'm probably way off though.

Also, I posted this hand because I think that it was probably a pretty bad bet on the river. But, I tend to miss value bets on the river, so I just wanted to see some discussion on the topic.

___1___ · #4 06-13-2007, 03:20 AM

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I don't understand why you raised the flop? There's a good chance you are behind, and if you are ahead, you may as well let him bluff into you with (at best) a four outer.

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I really can't say how absolutely critical this is to understand and how many players don't understand it. Good post, sweetjazz.

___1___

dhaimon · #5 06-13-2007, 04:04 AM

I play it the same but check behind the river. I'd rather take this line than check turn and then have to fold river UI. I don't like the river bet though, as he will call any pair.

The flop raise is easy, the only thing you are behind in equity is a K or a pair of J, Q or As.

Mozart · #6 06-13-2007, 08:34 AM

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The flop raise is easy, the only thing you are behind in equity is a K or a pair of J, Q or As.

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I think you miss a lot of value if you raise the flop. Just call down and if you hit your flush or Ace raise him.

sethypooh21 · #7 06-13-2007, 02:40 PM

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The flop raise is easy, the only thing you are behind in equity is a K or a pair of J, Q or As.

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I think you miss a lot of value if you raise the flop. Just call down and if you hit your flush or Ace raise him.

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You get to showdown A-hi for 1 SB less if you miss, there is some value in that. At .25/.50 I have no clue what the flop donk means from unknown villain so it's really hard to evaluate this line. I do know that at 3/6 it is not at all rare to find villains who will donk 100% of flops after getting 3-bet PF.

nickg1532 · #8 06-13-2007, 02:19 AM

i don't like the river bet. once he calls the turn, he's calling the river with all better hands, and he folds smaller hearts that missed. MAYBE you get some value from hands like AT, but i don't think he has it + pays you off often enough

PokerSparky · #9 06-13-2007, 02:51 AM

I know you're asking about the river bet (it's a check for me), but I have to agree with SweetJazz that your flop raise is really bad IMO. The only hand your ahead of is a total bluff IMO. The only reason I could see for raising the flop is to take a free card on the turn/cheap showdown.

Xhad · #10 06-13-2007, 03:20 AM

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The only hand your ahead of is a total bluff IMO.

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Does being an equity favorite vs. a pair count as "ahead" here?