Weird 30-60 that I know you won't like but I'll still post...

[Josh W]

KK in the BB. Decent player openraises in mid/late position. Calling station calls. I call in BB w/ KK. I have KK in the BB.

I know you'll say to threebet, and if the SB had called, I woulda. But with the calling station where he was, I felt I could make more money by smooth calling preflop and checkraising the flop. Unless the flop comes like:

Flop comes AT4, rainbow. I check, first guy raises, calling station calls, I call.

Turn is a 6. Checked around.

River is a queen. I bet. Decent player raises. Calling station folds.

And since I can't see him raising KQ on the river, I fold.

Josh

[NLSoldier]

What are you putting him on when he raises the river. KJ seems fairly unlikely considering you have 2 of the kings, so I guess maybe QT? Tough fold but it doesnt really look like a spot where hes gonna be bluffing so I guess i like it.

[Josh W]

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What are you putting him on when he raises the river. KJ seems fairly unlikely considering you have 2 of the kings, so I guess maybe QT? Tough fold but it doesnt really look like a spot where hes gonna be bluffing so I guess i like it.

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QT (9 ways) is roughly as likely as KJ (8 ways).

I don't think he's bluffing when he raises the river...he has a bettor and a calling station behind him, it's costing 2 BB to bluff into a 5.5BB pot. Seems unlikely to me.

So I really think he thinks he has the best hand.

3 ways for QQ,
8 ways for KJ,
6 ways for KQ.

If those are his only three possible holdings (which they aren't), then he needs to raise KQ like half the time to make a call by me correct.

I think his most likely holding (not yet mentioned) is TT, trying to checkraise the turn. AA and AT are also very plausible.

Josh

[daryn]

i know you mean well, but i highly doubt the most profitable way to play this hand is to just call preflop. feel free to experiment though!

[Josh W]

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i know you mean well, but i highly doubt the most profitable way to play this hand is to just call preflop. feel free to experiment though!

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As a (very) rough rule of thumb, if I'm closing the action and it's going to be heads up, I'll just call (slowplay), thinking that the one lost SB will be easily made up throughout the course of the hand. If it's multiway (3 or more opponents), I'll threebet, because I'm not convinced i can make up those 3 SBs throughout the hand.

If it's 2 opponents, I go back and forth. Like i said, just given the layout (me, then decent, then calling station), I really thought I could make up the 2 SBs pretty easily on favorable flops (not to mention save bets on a bad flop).

I mean, if the flop comes 873, and i checkraise the field, lots of good things can happen. If I threebet preflop, betting the flop will reduce these "good things".

If the calling station was better, I would have threebet preflop.

I'm rambling. My takehome point is....I'm not saying my way is best. I hope somebody can explain to me clearly why it ISN'T best. I currently think it's close (In other words, I don't know what to do).

That's about it....

Josh

[TheBusiness]

I think one good reason you should be three-betting preflop is that you will definitely get two small bets because there is no way either of the villains is folding preflop for one more bet. But if you just call, and the flop is favorable to you (i.e. most flops without an ace, this flop just happens to have an ace) but somehow unfavorable to them, there is a chance that one or both of them folds on the flop and you miss the bets that you could have made preflop. Smooth calling with a big pocket pair is usually best heads up when you can get in the extra bet or bets on the turn, rather than on the flop. In a 3-way hand you are almost always losing equity by not reraising before the flop. Also, I agree with everyone else that if you are going to just smoothcall preflop and keep the pot small, its a great spot for getting out cheaply when that ace hits.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i know you mean well, but i highly doubt the most profitable way to play this hand is to just call preflop. feel free to experiment though!

[/ QUOTE ]

As a (very) rough rule of thumb, if I'm closing the action and it's going to be heads up, I'll just call (slowplay), thinking that the one lost SB will be easily made up throughout the course of the hand. If it's multiway (3 or more opponents), I'll threebet, because I'm not convinced i can make up those 3 SBs throughout the hand.

If it's 2 opponents, I go back and forth. Like i said, just given the layout (me, then decent, then calling station), I really thought I could make up the 2 SBs pretty easily on favorable flops (not to mention save bets on a bad flop).

I mean, if the flop comes 873, and i checkraise the field, lots of good things can happen. If I threebet preflop, betting the flop will reduce these "good things".

If the calling station was better, I would have threebet preflop.

I'm rambling. My takehome point is....I'm not saying my way is best. I hope somebody can explain to me clearly why it ISN'T best. I currently think it's close (In other words, I don't know what to do).

That's about it....

Josh

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[PokerBot123]

He probably has KJ most of the time, I don't think this is a slowplayed hand very often. After playing it the way you did it seems fold is the correct river play against most opponents, mostly because the pot is so small and there is a 3. player in the pot.

Something else to notice is that there is very few hands that doesn't, at the very least, make a pair on this board and if he is going to bluff he has to feel he has no other chance of winning the pot.

Excuse my sentence structure and spelling.

[Paluka]

I think keeping the pot small preflop with KK and then still putting money in with an ace on the flop smells bad.

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I think keeping the pot small preflop with KK and then still putting money in with an ace on the flop smells bad.

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I agree. The good thing about your strategy is that you can get out cheaply on unfavorable flops. An Ace-flop is one. Both players are still in, you have 2 outs when behind. You are drawing to 2 outs a lot. You dont want to pay 2.5BB to find out if you are good so its probably best to take the easy way out. If you had reraised preflop, thats a different story.

[Josh W]

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I think keeping the pot small preflop with KK and then still putting money in with an ace on the flop smells bad.

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Would you EVER smoothcall preflop? Those times that you did smoothcall, would you just check/fold the flop?

J