questions about hoss' style

[siegfriedandroy]

i read the hoss thread in high stakes the other day, and am very curious about his style. just posted the following on stox's site, and thought i'd post it here as well since there is so much more traffic here, and good minds as well:

"just read an interesting thread on 2plus2 about this player, who is apparently thought of as one of the best around. they described him as a 46% wtsd, said that he will basically take any pair to showdown (even when clearly beaten), and 3 bet super liberally from button or blinds w/ basically any 2. how can this be the basic strategy of one of the best players online!!!???

i really dont understand, and am posting this especially since my wtsd has never been above the mid thirties, and used to be right around 30 exactly. yet it seems many good players have wtsd's closer to 40. can anyone shed some light on how such a style can be so effective, and what separates such good players from your garden variety maniacs (who seem to play a similar strategy)? if this is optimum (hoss said he learned the style from studying chen's 'mathematics of poker'), i would love to learn it. ive been reading the first few chapters, and havent really learned anything concrete that i can apply at the tables (as opposed to stox's book , from which i have alreadly learned a ton of good practical stuff- btw, stox and zo, very good book so far- i see so far as quite superior to any past two plus two books on limit, and not just b/c it's geared toward short games).

i would love to hear from stox (or anyone else with sufficient knowledge) what their take is on hoss' style. obviously, if he is stealing constantly w/ any 2 and often calling down w/ any pair for a 46% wtsd, this is a lot different from how your typical 'good' player plays. how would you compare such incessant stealing w/ the recommendations in stox's book, which appear to be the result of careful and extensive research and study? and as for calling down (seemingly mindlessly) w/ any pair, how can this work? fwiw, i just played 2000 hands trying to play similarly, with 41/30 stats and wtsd of 40, which is very high for me (won 51). but even here, i felt that i often calling down hopelessly against players who i have pretty good reads on and have played thousands of hands against. all of these times i lost, and i dont see the point in calling if you know for sure you are beaten- can there really be some type of metagame factor going on then makes it correct to call when your expectation on the call is pretty close -1 big bet? on the other side, i did win a couple surprising ones when calling down against unknowns."

would love to hear some well thought responses on specifically why and how a 46% wtsd, w/ super loose stealing standards, and (seemingly) mindless calldowns could constitute the strategy framework of one of the best in the game. also, according to my good buddy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] victor, there are some very good players he knows of with close to 50% wtsd stats. what is the best way for nits like me (around 35ish) to profitably increase wtsd?

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

One thing to think about is that how liberally you are calling down is just one aspect of where your WTSD% winds up. The other element is how often your opponents are calling *you* down. Someone who plays aggressively will tend to see a lot of showdowns both because he's building big pots (meaning that all players involved have more incentive to see a showdown) and because of table image issues above and beyond this.

BTW, I believe that in today's game textures there is some premium in developing an image as someone who won't fold, but of course you need to know when your opponents are adjusting to you and be capable of downshifting and making some folds.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to think about is that how liberally you are calling down is just one aspect of where your WTSD% winds up. The other element is how often your opponents are calling *you* down. Someone who plays aggressively will tend to see a lot of showdowns both because he's building big pots (meaning that all players involved have more incentive to see a showdown) and because of table image issues above and beyond this.

BTW, I believe that in today's game textures there is some premium in developing an image as someone who won't fold, but of course you need to know when your opponents are adjusting to you and be capable of downshifting and making some folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, these seem to be valid points. But 46%!!?? Come on!! Also curious if he (or other top high stakes players) makes a ton of plays (pure bluffs, random wild c'r riv bluffs, etc, etc) or if he generally seems 'solid'. anyone know?

[dangerfish]

Lot of focus on calling down. Bluffing or value betting super thin and getting looked up is going to change your wtsd dramatically.

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
Lot of focus on calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the hands schneids posted and it seems there is calling on the river and elsewhere there is raising.

[dangerfish]

I probably should not have just said in one sentence that there was too much focus on calling down. I just don't think that for someone playing for example a 35% wtsd 50-55% wsd calling off more money by making crying calls is the correct response to a low wtsd %. By the same token bluffing off more money is not either but it does open up some opportunities to make you more difficult to deal with at the table.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lot of focus on calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the hands schneids posted and it seems there is calling on the river and elsewhere there is raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lot of focus on calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the hands schneids posted and it seems there is calling on the river and elsewhere there is raising.

[/ QUOTE ]


cant remember all the rest but let's start w/ the first one. schneids raises in hijack, and hoss calls w/ 48o. he checkraises flop w/ mp and calls 3 bet. he c/calls both the turn and river, despite both the flush and st draws arriving. how could this hand possibly be optimally played?? i dont understand!!

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
Lot of focus on calling down. Bluffing or value betting super thin and getting looked up is going to change your wtsd dramatically.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i understand there are other factors that contribute to this stat. i was just commenting on the description of his play in the other thread, which says he basically calls down w/ any pair, even when clearly hopeless. how can this be correct?

as far as bluffing and valueing super light, you may well be right. anyone here sufficiently familiar w/ hoss' style to know what types of plays/bluffs he will make? i bluff a reasonable amount (nothing too fancy normally), but have no idea really if my frequency is too high or low (perhaps low since my wtsd is 35). basically im curious how to best learn such proper frequencies for bluffs, plays, etc, since such material was only artificial in the twoplustwo works i learned the game from (ie bluff if you think the chance he will fold is favorable compared to pot size, etc- okay, but when specifically is this so??). i guess posting hands can help for specific scenarios to have good players give their two cents, but again, this is usually pretty speculative. any thoughts/ideas on how to best learn to play this style w/o just becoming another donk? hopefully chen's book will improve my understanding...

[Bluffman]

as the official president of the Hoss_TBF fan club, i have been authorized by the hoss to answer all your questions.

hoss is a master of holding grudges. if he doesn't like you, he will try to humiliate you every hand by calling you down with Q high, pair of deuces, etc etc and so on.

if he thinks you are good, he will occasionally fold a pair but he won't like it, and it usually puts him in a bad mood and will get your name on his 'list'. If your name gets on the list thrice, it goes in his book, and you DON'T want to get in the book.

a good strategy to counter Hoss' strategy is to flop top pairs a lot. one time i flopped top pair against him about 15 hands in a row, and won over 35 bbs against him.

a good way to increase wtsd is to see every river, and call every river bet. using this strategy, it is possible to have a 100% wtsd.

cheers.

[siegfriedandroy]

thank you very much!!