How badly is the US inciting Islamic hatred against itself?

[Taraz]

This may belong in Politics, but I always post here and respect the opinions of many posters here. I'm hoping that this post will spark rational discussion rather than senseless jabbering back and forth.

I've been reading about Islam and the Quran recently and the more I learn, the more scared I become that we are playing right into the hands of the radical and violent Islamic leaders.

There are many passages in the Quran that declare Christians and Jews to be spiritual brothers to Islam. The 'infidels' are only those who actively persecute and oppose Islam. And, from what I can understand, it seems like Muslims cannot justify aggression through their faith. Only self-defense.

So as long as our government keeps insinuating that Islam is a religion of violence and hate, Muslims can view America as attacking their religion. When we claim that we have to go into the Middle East and spread our ideology, radical Muslim leaders can claim that we are assaulting Islam.

It's downright scary since I can't really see either side backing down. It seems like whatever action is made, the other side will claim self-defense and continue the aggression. I think that we might have to be the first one's to turn the other cheek a little bit and stop insisting that the Muslim world conform to all of our ideals when they are clearly unready to do so.

[BluffTHIS!]

You are selectively reading the Koran. Read more and search past politics forum threads on this topic, and how the Koran says to treat non-believers if they will not convert. *And* see what current Islamic leaders/clerics say about non-believers, and Jews in particular (like Iran's president). Also, you might want to bone up on one of their philosophers, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, a Palestinian who supported Nazi Germany.

There is all the proof in the world that Islamic fundamentalism is not content with securing freedom of worship for their own believers, but as well in denying that freedom to non-believers in many majority Moslem countries, and in imposing Shari'a law by force of arms irrespective of the wishes of the non-believers, or even fellow Moslems of differing sects. Read up on the Sudan and the religious genocide by radical Islam against Christians and animists.

Radical Islam is the primary threat to world peace now. And if some apologists for Islam maintain that really isn't what the majority of Moslems believe, then that can only be proven by that supposed majority firmly and constantly speaking out and acting against the Islamic radicals/terrorists.



Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
--9:29


People of the Book = Jews and Christians

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Radical Islam is the primary threat to world peace now. And if some apologists for Islam maintain that really isn't what the majority of Moslems believe, then that can only be proven by that supposed majority firmly and constantly speaking out and acting against the Islamic radicals/terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's no more true than claiming your poisition can only be supported if the majority constantly speak out in favour of Islamic radicals/terrorists.

One problem imo with US policy and British policy is that its acted in a way that makes it easier for extremists to thrive within otherwise more moderate communities and pushed people to become more extreme.

If we're not going to take an ethical approcah and try to maintain some moral high ground and win hearts and minds then the alternative is unpleasent but competent foreign policy - almost the complete opposite of the Iraq fiasco.

chez

[BluffTHIS!]

chez,

I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.

This whole "we're alienating the moderates" [censored] is a red herring. If the majority of Moslmes truly want peace and religious tolerance, then let it be shown in the actions of the governments of their countries, and in their own personal attitudes toward women in general, and also non-believers. They expect and demand religious freedom when they emmigrate to the west, but they most often, whether overtly or more subletly, deny non-believers living in majority Moslem countries, those same rights, and you know that is true. And what is more, just as is constantly demonstrated in Iraq, they fight among themselves over religious differences.

As has often been discussed in these forums, Islam is still stuck in the mindset and practices of the middle ages, that Christians and other religiouns mostly left behind. And note that all these comments are directed mainly at the majority Moslems countries, and not to Moslems living in western countries.


When all of the following are true, we will know the majority of Moslems sincerely want peace and not to impose their faith on others by force:

1) Israel's right to exist is acknowledged;

2) A christian minister/priest can freely proclaim the gospel in Riyadh;

3) Moslems everywhere stop trying to impose Shari'a law on anyone Moslem or non-beliver who doesn't want to live under it (i.e. the rights of the minority are protected even if a majority wishes more religion in government);

4) A majority of Moslem clerics *in majority Moslem countries* denounce all the actions of Islamic terrorists, no matter against whom they are directed.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]

I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.

This whole "we're alienating the moderates" [censored] is a red herring.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you do and as you must know I think you're completely wrong and we're never going to agree. I assume both our points are view are honestly held.

BUT even if for the sake of discussion we assume you're correct then the question is how best to deal with it and I find it hard to imagine how anyone thinks the incompetence of the Iraq fiasco hasn't made the situation worse. On that basis alone I think the US (and come-on we Brits deserve some credit) have done a great deal to incite Islamic hatred.

chez

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.</font>

I knew if I kept reading your posts, there would one day be something I absolutely agreed with! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.

[/ QUOTE ]
BluffTHIS,

Do you feel responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because your support of the Catholic Church is a contributing factor in it.

Similarly, when your government messed in the internal affairs of other sovereign countries (i.e. creating a coup of the democratically elected Iranian government), as they continue to do illegally to this day, did you SPEAK UP against it? If not, you are complicit.

Similarly, when the US government blocks UN resolutions requiring Israel to end its illegal occupation of sovereign lands and human rights violations, did you SPEAK UP about it? If not, you are complicit.

If you don't accept these arguments then I humbly suggest there is some hypocrisy in your position.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.

[/ QUOTE ]
BluffTHIS,

Do you feel responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because your support of the Catholic Church is a contributing factor in it.

Similarly, when your government messed in the internal affairs of other sovereign countries (i.e. creating a coup of the democratically elected Iranian government), as they continue to do illegally to this day, did you SPEAK UP against it? If not, you are complicit.

Similarly, when the US government blocks UN resolutions requiring Israel to end its illegal occupation of sovereign lands and human rights violations, did you SPEAK UP about it? If not, you are complicit.

If you don't accept these arguments then I humbly suggest there is some hypocrisy in your position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for posting this, I was going to bring up this point as well. I just wanted a few others to post so I wouldn't monopolize the thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[HeavilyArmed]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't accept these arguments then I humbly suggest there is some hypocrisy in your position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Positional hypocricy is an American birthright. I'm content with it in small measures.

[Peter666]

"Do you feel responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because your support of the Catholic Church is a contributing factor in it.

Similarly, when your government messed in the internal affairs of other sovereign countries (i.e. creating a coup of the democratically elected Iranian government), as they continue to do illegally to this day, did you SPEAK UP against it? If not, you are complicit."

AIDS is spread by fornication, sodomy and tainted needles, not the Catholic Church. If people followed Catholic doctrine, AIDS would not be spread.

Likewise, if the US listened to the Catholic Church before it invaded Iraq, it would not be in the mess it is now, inciting Islamic hatred. And the same goes for Israel.

And if the Crusaders managed to defeat the Moslems in the middle ages, we wouldn't have the problem with them today either.