Never openlimp! (?)

[kaby]

A table at 2/4 tonight.

CO is like 55 vpip and doesn't care if it's 1 bet or 3 cold to him. Button is the same type but 65% vpip. SB is a bit tighter (45ish). BB is semi reasonable, like 35% vpip. Obv they all call down very light and are fairly passive.

Hero is MP with A4s. UTG folds.

What is the best option preflop and why?

Same table but now hero is in the CO and has A6o. UTG&MP fold. Same question. Same question for KTo.

Or in general:
Why should I openraise marginal hands when (1) there is no chance I'll take it down preflop or on the flop with a cbet and (2) I don't have to be afraid to get isoraised, I don't have to be scared by someone abusing position on me, ...

[yourface]

I fold A4s. we have a pretty thin equity edge preflop; we will be OOP versus villains who have very wide ranges making them very hard to read and leading to more postflop mistakes by us; villains are coldcalling lots of AX hands that have us dominated.

I fold A6o there for mostly the same reasons. our position is better but our equity edge (if there even is one) is worse.

I raise KT since we can make more winning pairs and there are much fewer dominating hands in villains' ranges.

[kaby]

You don't even consider openlimping A4s in this situation?

[yourface]

it is very rare that villains are totally braindead and don't even consider the preflop action. if I play I want to come in for a raise to give myself a better chance to buy the button and some postflop fold equity.

edit: keep in mind I am nitty preflop compared to a lot of posters on this forum. however I do have lots of recent experience playing in loose games.

[nickabourisk]

kaby, I definitely know what you are talking about. I play at Pacific (very loose) and I deal with the same types of players all the time. I also raise most times in for the same reasons that yourface has listed. However, I believe that limping with decent (but not raiseable) hands may be higher EV for me. The reasons for this are: 1) I'm often playing in multiway pots where people call preflop 3bets with the same hands that they limp with. 2) I can play better postflop than they can and since they call down with weak draws, a single overcard, any two on low paired boards, and with low pocket pairs trying to hit a 22:1 dog set, then I can value bet more. 3) I have a nasty habit of cbetting WAY too much (esp. in these games) when I raise PF yet when I limp in with high cards that don't hit and I'm not getting the right odds to peal off a turn card, I can throw my hand away in a heartbeat.

Obv an alternative to this is just to tighten up PF and charge these people for their badness.

[Nick C]

My guess is that in the situation you give, folding, open-limping, and raising the A4s are approximately equal plays in the long term.

I would fold the A6o, I think.

Edit: Oops, I forgot the KTo. Probably I would raise. It's not the sort of "steal" that's going to make you rich, though. In fact, all of these situations seem marginal to me, although under the circumstances I like the A6o least of all.

[SlantNGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Obv they all call down very light and are fairly passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy open-limp. I do it more often than most posters here do though.

EDIT: I would fold KT in this position if I'm sure I'll have one, if not two, cold-callers behind me.

[wackjob]

i don't open limp in short handed games. i have never found a place or time to do it. its not necessary for mixing up my play, and i'd rather be in the lead and be the agressor, open limping opens up the field of players behind you to limp all kinds of crap and be doing it correctly, while if you come in for a raise with a hand like K10o, many hands will be calling incorrectly with their garbage.

[StrictlyStrategy]

I think an open limp is better than a raise, and a limp and a fold are close, but I'm more inclined to limp.

[Ricks]

With a few exceptions, I would never open limp. Good players will have a party raising you. Everything I have ever read about SH play discourages this practice.