Coercion, how I see it

[neverforgetlol]

Here's a definition I got from the dictionary

"the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will"

Libertarians claim that government is coercive, because the government forces us to do things like pay taxes, or obey laws, under threats of violence or reprisal, such as fines, jail time, etc. However libertarians do not believe capitalism is inherently coercive.

Capitalism is a system by which there is a market for labor power. Thus there are some who own capital and buy labor power to produce using said capital, and those who do not own capital and thus must sell their labor power.

We have two classes, and it is clear that in most cases those who sell labor power need the buyers more than vice versa. It is one thing to be a lawyer or a physician, but your average factory or farm worker doesn't have the privelege of market power. Thus the employer is able to act in a way that I consider coercive and essentially "get away with it."

Let's look at an example, we have a male boss, and a female employee, let's say in a factory. The employee is doing menial labor that many people are able to do, especially immigrants, for example. Now let's say the boss makes a demand, for example he demands this employee have sexual intercourse with him or she will be fired.

The question is, how is this any less coercive than government? In both cases there are threats or intimidating behavior, implied or otherwise, that puts a person in fear of consequence (jail time, or getting fired from their job) such that the person acts against their will (pays their taxes, or has sex with their boss to keep their job).

So what is the difference? Libertarians would say that you don't have to work there, you can just leave. But you can also leave the United States, renounce your citizenship and never have to pay U.S. taxes again. There is also the argument that the US has no right (whatever those are) to tax us. But from whence does the employer get the right to coerce his or her employees?

Just my two cents. I think either both cases are coercive or neither are. Either you accept capitalism and government or you reject both.

[Borodog]

She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[neverforgetlol]

[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving. You do have a choice. No one is forcing you to stay in this country.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving.

[/ QUOTE ]
The woman can likely quit her job and get a new one without having to move. Not true with the government.

[neverforgetlol]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving.

[/ QUOTE ]
The woman can likely quit her job and get a new one without having to move. Not true with the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? What does moving have to do with you having a choice?

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving.

[/ QUOTE ]
The woman can likely quit her job and get a new one without having to move. Not true with the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? What does moving have to do with you having a choice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a joke? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving.

[/ QUOTE ]
The woman can likely quit her job and get a new one without having to move. Not true with the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? What does moving have to do with you having a choice?

[/ QUOTE ]
Forcing you to move greatly increases the hardship you have to go through as well as limits your options. And anywhere you'd want to move save for deserted islands and penguinland are going to have governments that are just as bad or worse.

Look, I agree that a boss demanding sex from his employees is bad and coercive. But all you've indicted is the boss, not the free market. Were it not for free market, she'd have nowhere else to go.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving. You do have a choice. No one is forcing you to stay in this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just going to stop arguing on this godforsaken forum. It's the same arguments over and over and over again.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She can quit. When the government wants to [censored] you, you have no choice.

Next.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can quit the job and the US the same way, by leaving. You do have a choice. No one is forcing you to stay in this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just going to stop arguing on this godforsaken forum. It's the same arguments over and over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you should bookmark your good posts, so you can just copy and paste them when the same argument comes up for the four xillionth time.

EG:

I have some hot dogs. I am selling them for $100 each. Since you probably like to eat (or know somebody who does), I'm going to force you to buy them (for your own good - you just said you need to eat something!). If you don't want to buy them, you need to move to siberia, because I'm giving myself the monopoly on food distribution for everywhere except there. Your presense in my monopoly territory is tacit consent to my distribution scheme.

Oh, and as a bonus, I give free wedgies (retail value: $500 each, just because I arbitrarily placed that value on them) with each hotdog. Enjoy!

[neverforgetlol]

Obviously if it is going to be me vs. every AC on the forum this won't go well. There is a complete misunderstanding of the point of my OP, but whatever, it doesn't matter, this [censored] doesn't mean anything anyway.