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#1
05-11-2007, 04:55 AM
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I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)
SB: $62.80 BB: $100.85 Regular (UTG): $74.75 <font color="black">Hero (CO): $61.45</font> BTN: $14.25 <font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">Villain is a reg, probably 2p2, 17/12/2.5. Edit: He probably has a HUD, and with numbers on me like 24/17/3</font> <font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt J  A (5 Players)<font color="red">Regular raises to $1.05</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.60</font>, 3 folds, Regular calls $2.55 Uncalled bet of $0.00 returned to Hero <font color="black">Flop:</font> ($7.65) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) Regular checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $5.00</font>, <font color="red">Regular raises to $12.90</font>, Hero calls $7.90 <font color="black">Turn:</font> ($33.45) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) Regular checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $22.00</font> I have some thoughts on this, but I'd like others to comment first. 
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#2
05-11-2007, 05:23 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
Pot is 25.5
You need to call 8. You get 1 to 3,2. Does it look like someone who doesnt want to get drawn out? We are talking about a connected monotone board here.
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#3
05-11-2007, 09:34 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
[ QUOTE ]
Pot is 25.5 You need to call 8. You get 1 to 3,2. Does it look like someone who doesnt want to get drawn out? We are talking about a connected monotone board here. [/ QUOTE ] I can't get the flop either, and for that reason I don't see the point in bluffing. Either he wants you to call on the flop, or he made a pretty big mistake with his betsizing.
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#4
05-11-2007, 10:42 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Pot is 25.5 You need to call 8. You get 1 to 3,2. Does it look like someone who doesnt want to get drawn out? We are talking about a connected monotone board here. [/ QUOTE ] I can't get the flop either, and for that reason I don't see the point in bluffing. Either he wants you to call on the flop, or he made a pretty big mistake with his betsizing. [/ QUOTE ] The flop cr doesnt "make sense" no matter what you think villain has, whether it is a bluff, set, TP or flush.
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#5
05-11-2007, 10:53 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
I've been trying to put into words my problem with this all day.
I think it is this: you may indeed be bluffing with what is technically a made hand, but the "madeness" of the hand is never going to be what wins you this pot. In that sense, the fact the hand is made is totally irrelevent. You might as well have 72o here. If he folds, you bluffed him off the hand by repping a flush. And if he calls your "made" hand is worthless. Simialrly, if you succeed in folding out a low flush, once again the "madeness" of your hand is not what won you the hand. It was the bluff. So basically I don't think this is bluffing with a made hand. I just think it is bluffing.
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#6
05-11-2007, 11:07 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
[ QUOTE ]
I've been trying to put into words my problem with this all day. I think it is this: you may indeed be bluffing with what is technically a made hand, but the "madeness" of the hand is never going to be what wins you this pot. In that sense, the fact the hand is made is totally irrelevent. You might as well have 72o here. If he folds, you bluffed him off the hand by repping a flush. And if he calls your "made" hand is worthless. Simialrly, if you succeed in folding out a low flush, once again the "madeness" of your hand is not what won you the hand. It was the bluff. So basically I don't think this is bluffing with a made hand. I just think it is bluffing. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, avfletch spelled it out to me. I know it is a pure bluff, I picked the headline for its views-inducing powers. Also, it is pretty rare for me to pull a pure bluff w TPGK. In fact, it is pretty rare to see it in the micro forum at all.
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#7
05-11-2007, 10:49 PM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Pot is 25.5 You need to call 8. You get 1 to 3,2. Does it look like someone who doesnt want to get drawn out? We are talking about a connected monotone board here. [/ QUOTE ] I can't get the flop either, and for that reason I don't see the point in bluffing. Either he wants you to call on the flop, or he made a pretty big mistake with his betsizing. [/ QUOTE ] The flop cr doesnt "make sense" no matter what you think villain has, whether it is a bluff, set, TP or flush. [/ QUOTE ] Please explain. Provided I am in the villains shoes and hero is somewhat solid, how do you propose I play: 1) a set; 2) AJh+; 3) made flush. Disregarding the ch/r sizing and provided that I am bad enough to call a 3bet OOP with AKh or 6h7h type of hand. But I am sure a lot of villains at this level are.
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#8
05-12-2007, 05:08 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Pot is 25.5 You need to call 8. You get 1 to 3,2. Does it look like someone who doesnt want to get drawn out? We are talking about a connected monotone board here. [/ QUOTE ] I can't get the flop either, and for that reason I don't see the point in bluffing. Either he wants you to call on the flop, or he made a pretty big mistake with his betsizing. [/ QUOTE ] The flop cr doesnt "make sense" no matter what you think villain has, whether it is a bluff, set, TP or flush. [/ QUOTE ] Please explain. Provided I am in the villains shoes and hero is somewhat solid, how do you propose I play: 1) a set; 2) AJh+; 3) made flush. Disregarding the ch/r sizing and provided that I am bad enough to call a 3bet OOP with AKh or 6h7h type of hand. But I am sure a lot of villains at this level are. [/ QUOTE ] The sizing of villains bet is what made me suspicious. But if I was villain I would probably c/c with all these hands, because I knew hero was aggressive and a cr might shut him down. I might donk sometimes as well, hoping to get raised. FWIW I see that calling villains cr on the flop here is problematic, I went with my gut and it looks like I got lucky with the 4th heart. The reason I think bluffing on the turn is good is because villains line looks very weak. CR flop small, then check turn when the scare card falls? He is begging me to take it away. Note that I didnt have a plan to bluff the turn after calling his cr. If you dont agree that his line looks weak, and that I have a good chance of taking it down on the turn, we will just have to agree to disagree.
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#9
05-11-2007, 05:24 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
Hmmm, hands that call you are KQhh (is this in his range, considering you are this deep?), KxKh, QxQh, and perhaps JxJh? I dont know if his 3bet calling range is wider here though. But seeing as how the hand went down, this is probably fine against a good regular.
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#10
05-11-2007, 05:43 AM
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Re: I bluff with a made hand, just like in high stakes
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, hands that call you are KQhh (is this in his range, considering you are this deep?), KxKh, QxQh, and perhaps JxJh? I dont know if his 3bet calling range is wider here though. But seeing as how the hand went down, this is probably fine against a good regular. [/ QUOTE ] KQh no, KKh I very much doubt it. However, I think that he might semibluff the flop with 22h-QQh. I actually read the cr as weakness on this flop, and I think that's what it usually is from 2p2-type players in HU pots. I mean, why the hell would he cr me if he flopped the flush or a set? Any other line but check fold would be better. Same goes for AK - a cr would overrep his hand.
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