Was this really stupid?

[Hamlet]

I'm new to tournament play. I was playing in a $10 NL HE Party Poker tournament with 2500 entries. We had just gotten to under 20 people.

The blinds were 4000/8000, my stack was a little over 60000, and the average stack was about 130000. The payouts for places 11-20 are the same ($175). I decided that in order to have a chance at the higher places (1st paid $5250), I needed to double up before the blinds ate me down to where doubling up wouldn't do me any good.

The big stack was raising very liberally. He raised to $24000, there were a couple folds to me, and I pushed with A8s in mid-to-late position. Foolish?

I figured he would auto-call and that I would be close to a coin-flip to his range. In retro-spect, I think that the potential for someone behind me to wake up with a hand makes this a fold.

[FGators]

I don't like your position at all. If you were in the blinds and the liberal raiser was doing this from the button or the cutoff this would be a much better idea. A8 is a trouble hand because in these PartyPoker events people are not laying down AJ-AK or pairs from nines up to your push.

[Hamlet]

Yeah, this is really the key to why this was a mistake. I still have about 3-4 hands that could wake up with a decent pair or a big Ace and call. Then my desired coin-flip becomes a 3-way pot in which one of the hands has me dominated.

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I don't like your position at all. If you were in the blinds and the liberal raiser was doing this from the button or the cutoff this would be a much better idea. A8 is a trouble hand because in these PartyPoker events people are not laying down AJ-AK or pairs from nines up to your push.

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[seke2]

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Yeah, this is really the key to why this was a mistake. I still have about 3-4 hands that could wake up with a decent pair or a big Ace and call. Then my desired coin-flip becomes a 3-way pot in which one of the hands has me dominated.

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I don't like your position at all. If you were in the blinds and the liberal raiser was doing this from the button or the cutoff this would be a much better idea. A8 is a trouble hand because in these PartyPoker events people are not laying down AJ-AK or pairs from nines up to your push.

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No, no, no. The problem is the big stack, not the players behind you.

Look at it from the perspective of the SB or BB. They see the table's big stack raise from EP and then a small stack make a push that they know is going to be called by the big stack, and could be potentially reraised. What hands do they need to get involved? If I'm one of those guys, I'm only playing if I get QQ/KK/AA or AK. Maybe JJ/TT. You can't worry about them. If the later position guys are also small stacks, they might take a shot with an AJ/AQ or 88/99 for the pot odds. You didn't post stack sizes, so we can't really judge that.

But the real problem continues to be the fact that you are going all-in against the big stack with a weak hand and no fold equity at all, and you're probably an underdog most of the time when he calls you.

[rockin]

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I'm new to tournament play. I was playing in a $10 NL HE Party Poker tournament with 2500 entries. We had just gotten to under 20 people.

The blinds were 4000/8000, my stack was a little over 60000, and the average stack was about 130000. The payouts for places 11-20 are the same ($175). I decided that in order to have a chance at the higher places (1st paid $5250), I needed to double up before the blinds ate me down to where doubling up wouldn't do me any good.

The big stack was raising very liberally. He raised to $24000, there were a couple folds to me, and I pushed with A8s in mid-to-late position. Foolish?

I figured he would auto-call and that I would be close to a coin-flip to his range. In retro-spect, I think that the potential for someone behind me to wake up with a hand makes this a fold.

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Harrington recommends that when your M is less than 5 open pushing. Villain was the first one into the pot, I would fold in this situation and hope to have better circumstances in the next few hands.

[registrar]

I don't like it. As you say, he would have to be holding very weak cards not to call.
I'm not so worried about action behind because someone would have to wake up with an awesome hand to call or raise a pot that the CL had opened from ep and that mp has reraised all-in.
But, in my view, reraising with ace rag with no fold equity is madness.

[seke2]

I'm folding here.

There's almost no chance the big stack folds to your raise. His pot odds will be something like 3:1 and he can surely afford the call. Since he raised from EP, you have to give him credit for something--I'd say any pair, Ax, 2 broadway cards. I wouldn't expect suited connectors worse than T9 or 98. What are you putting his range on that you believe you're a coinflip?

Against any pair, you're either a coinflip or a moderate underdog (or a huge dog to aces).
Against most Ax hands that would raise in EP, you're a big underdog.
Against 2 non-ace broadway cards, you're a slight favorite.
Even in the very best case, let's say 2 low suited connecters like 67s or 56s, you're only a moderate favorite. Not many people raise those hands in EP at a full table, even liberal big stacks, especially at $10 stakes.

And yes, there are players left to act behind you, but I probably wouldn't worry about them. Unless they have a TT+ or AK, they aren't going to come into a hand where the big stack raised and a small but not insignificant stack pushed. If you push and one of them wakes up with a premium hand, oh well, so be it, but you can't not push because there's a 1% chance one of the 3 guys behind you has pocket aces. You should be folding mostly because of the big stack's raise, not because of the potential of the players behind you.

In any case, this was not a good spot to push when you know you're going to be called.

[Hamlet]

It got heads up with the big stack who had pocket 9s. I got my money in as a 2 to 1 dog and lost [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

It was exciting though, because the board was QJT9 on the turn. Sadly, the river paired the board and sent me packing. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

With the amount of raising he was doing, I really didn't think he was likely to have this strong of a hand.

The problem I had with waiting is that I wasn't all that likely to find a better spot in the next few hands. If I waited until after the blinds passed, I would be doubling to 98,000 instead of 120,000. I might find a spot where I'm a small favorite, but if I wait too long I'm not any better off. Would it be preferable to go all in UTG with something like Q8o? It was getting pretty aggressive at this point. The only way I was going to be first into the pot was from early position.

I'm trying to get a feel for short-stacked play. I'm used to ring games where there is always the option to wait for a better spot. Guess I better play some SitNGos.

[rockin]

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It got heads up with the big stack who had pocket 9s. I got my money in as a 2 to 1 dog and lost [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

It was exciting though, because the board was QJT9 on the turn. Sadly, the river paired the board and sent me packing. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

With the amount of raising he was doing, I really didn't think he was likely to have this strong of a hand.

The problem I had with waiting is that I wasn't all that likely to find a better spot in the next few hands. If I waited until after the blinds passed, I would be doubling to 98,000 instead of 120,000. I might find a spot where I'm a small favorite, but if I wait too long I'm not any better off. Would it be preferable to go all in UTG with something like Q8o? It was getting pretty aggressive at this point. The only way I was going to be first into the pot was from early position.

I'm trying to get a feel for short-stacked play. I'm used to ring games where there is always the option to wait for a better spot. Guess I better play some SitNGos.

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it would be better to wait until it is folded to you and you are the first in. a hand such as 98o is even better than the Q8 you had suggested. the problem with the A8 you played and the Q8 you suggested is that too often you are dominated when your opponent has one of the same cards such as AK or AJ(vs your A8) or AQ, KQ (against your Q8). Now its down to just 3 outs that you have to hit to win the hand whereas if you play 89, not only do you have 6 outs against AK, but you also have straight possibilities. Ace weak is not a good hand to be calling a raise or pushing with UNLESS you are first in. (I wouldnt be calling a raise or pushing against a raiser with 89o either, just pointing out that you have better chance with 89 then A8). You want to be first in, unless you have a REAL hand.

[seke2]

Hamlet--you say he didn't need to have that strong of a hand. And you're right. But your hand wasn't strong either! He could have turned over 22-77, KQ, KJ, just as easily as 99-AA, AK-A9. But the problem is that in the very best cases, you're still going to get called and you're not going to be a big favorite unless Villain has A2-A7. You're probably behind, possibly way behind, and maybe a coinflip.

You're right that you needed to double up. Your M was 5. But you weren't desperate enough for this push. If I could pick between pushing A8 in your posted situation vs. pushing Q8o UTG, I'd take the Q8 most likely (might differ based on who was in the blinds and stack sizes). Your stack isn't insignificant, you have some FE here. Not that I'd actually push Q8 with an M of 5 at an active table, but that seems preferable to what you did.

Even if you do have to pay 1 round of blinds, you're not dead in the water. If you double to 100k instead of 120k, that's a few blind-buyings from an average stack size anyway. It's not that different.

Basically, what we're saying is that you could have found a better spot than this. You pushed with a weak hand against a player who was basically obligated to call with any 2 cards. He raised from EP at a full/near-full table. You have to give him credit for some kind of hand. Very rarely will he turn over a hand that you are beating significant, something like A7 or A6.

Also, you seem to be describing this table as very active, as you say you'd have to push from EP to open a pot. Is the Villain going to raise from EP with a garbage hand at an active table, knowing it's probably going to be called? He's going to have to have something playable.

Find a better spot to push. Playing some SNGs would be good for you to get used to playing with different stack sizes and expensive blinds.