Experiencing God's Presence

Taraz · #1 05-09-2007, 01:21 AM

I know this has been touched on before, but I don't remember reading a satisfactory answer.

Can any theist explain to me how they got from experiencing God or having a conversation with God to believing in all that their religion tells them? I understand spiritual experiences and the impact that they can have. What I don't understand is how any of these experiences lead one to believe in the inerrancy of holy texts, that Jesus is our savior, that suicide bombing is acceptable, etc.

I know the atheist/agnostic/moderate position is to say that after having such an experience you just assume that it is from the God that you have heard the most about. In other words, your community has told you all about a specific conception of God, you have this "special" experience, therefore this specific God must have spoken to you. I find that rather weak and I'm hoping that there are some theists that have a better answer for me.

PairTheBoard · #2 05-09-2007, 02:17 AM

I think what happens for most people is that they are given lessons on a religion and then have a spiritual experience with the concepts of the religion in mind.

However, regardless of prior experience with religious teachings, people naturaly wonder about things like, where did we come from, why are we here, is there a purpose to my life? etc. Out of meditation on these issues people have subjective experiences.

I've heard a lot of people when asked if they believe in God say, "Well, I believe there's something". They have had a subjective experience that's brought them to some state of conviction about these eternal issues. They may seek out others and compare notes so to speak. Thereby gravitating toward one Religious interpretation or another. Sometimes they even invent a new Religion themselves. If Religions were somehow abolished I think you would see more of this.

PairTheBoard

Taraz · #3 05-09-2007, 02:33 AM

I believe that many people have these subjective experiences and I even believe that they can be very meaningful and valuable. However I have yet to hear of anyone whose subjective experiences have told them anything close to all that many theists believe.

I will grant you that people talk about these experiences, compare notes, gravitate toward one another and toward a religion, etc. But I don't see how this gives them any conviction of certainty about a majority of their religious views.

So let's say I'm given lessons on a religion or I am meditating on a specific teaching/principle. How does the resulting spiritual experience have to do with anything other than that specific teaching/principle? I dunno, I'm just curious as to what kind of experiences people have had.

PairTheBoard · #4 05-09-2007, 03:13 AM

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I believe that many people have these subjective experiences and I even believe that they can be very meaningful and valuable. However I have yet to hear of anyone whose subjective experiences have told them anything close to all that many theists believe.

I will grant you that people talk about these experiences, compare notes, gravitate toward one another and toward a religion, etc. But I don't see how this gives them any conviction of certainty about a majority of their religious views.

So let's say I'm given lessons on a religion or I am meditating on a specific teaching/principle. How does the resulting spiritual experience have to do with anything other than that specific teaching/principle? I dunno, I'm just curious as to what kind of experiences people have had.

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I think that being persuaded by other people is a big part of the experience as far as accepting specific doctrines.

PairTheBoard

Taraz · #5 05-09-2007, 03:21 AM

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I think that being persuaded by other people is a big part of the experience as far as accepting specific doctrines.

PairTheBoard

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I'm not sure if I follow you here. The experience is tempered by what they have heard previously? I definitely believe that. But then is it the case that people don't realize this? Because it seems like people take these experiences to reveal truth that comes from a divine source, not from what they heard last week.

I'm just trying to understand religious conviction. I don't understand how anyone can have a high level of confidence in their faith, be it theistic, deistic, or atheistic.

godBoy · #6 05-09-2007, 03:27 AM

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I'm just trying to understand religious conviction. I don't understand how anyone can have a high level of confidence in their faith, be it theistic, deistic, or atheistic.

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It's that their experiences closely or perfectly match those described in their holy texts.
It's even more compelling when you experience something you haven't read in the text but find it there later. This way you know that you weren't manifesting something because you read it and wanted it to be true - which would be the typical skeptics line of questioning.

revots33 · #7 05-09-2007, 05:50 PM

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I know the atheist/agnostic/moderate position is to say that after having such an experience you just assume that it is from the God that you have heard the most about. In other words, your community has told you all about a specific conception of God, you have this "special" experience, therefore this specific God must have spoken to you. I find that rather weak and I'm hoping that there are some theists that have a better answer for me

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I don't think you're going to find a better answer because there isn't one. If there was you'd find Iranians becoming Christians and Texans becoming Muslims at the same rate. We are a product of our environment. It's the same reason kids in the USA who discover they love playing sports don't usually get into cricket or hurling.

Taraz · #8 05-09-2007, 05:56 PM

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I know the atheist/agnostic/moderate position is to say that after having such an experience you just assume that it is from the God that you have heard the most about. In other words, your community has told you all about a specific conception of God, you have this "special" experience, therefore this specific God must have spoken to you. I find that rather weak and I'm hoping that there are some theists that have a better answer for me

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I don't think you're going to find a better answer because there isn't one. If there was you'd find Iranians becoming Christians and Texans becoming Muslims at the same rate. We are a product of our environment. It's the same reason kids in the USA who discover they love playing sports don't usually get into cricket or hurling.

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Again, I don't think it's the case that most theists will concede that they believe in Jesus because that is what they have heard the most about. When I said that it was "weak" I just meant that it wouldn't be satisfying to me if I was the believer. I would need more. I would question it. There must be some other way that the believer makes sense of these experiences if they think about it at all.

revots33 · #9 05-09-2007, 06:12 PM

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Again, I don't think it's the case that most theists will concede that they believe in Jesus because that is what they have heard the most about. When I said that it was "weak" I just meant that it wouldn't be satisfying to me if I was the believer. I would need more. I would question it. There must be some other way that the believer makes sense of these experiences if they think about it at all.

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They might not concede it, but that doesn't mean that's not the reason. If an American says, "I''m a Christian because Christianity meshes best with my personal subjective spiritual experience", does that make it true? I'm sure it's true *to them*, but there's a 99.9% chance that person would be a Muslim if he happened to be born in a different place.

Taraz · #10 05-09-2007, 06:30 PM

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Again, I don't think it's the case that most theists will concede that they believe in Jesus because that is what they have heard the most about. When I said that it was "weak" I just meant that it wouldn't be satisfying to me if I was the believer. I would need more. I would question it. There must be some other way that the believer makes sense of these experiences if they think about it at all.

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They might not concede it, but that doesn't mean that's not the reason. If an American says, "I''m a Christian because Christianity meshes best with my personal subjective spiritual experience", does that make it true? I'm sure it's true *to them*, but there's a 99.9% chance that person would be a Muslim if he happened to be born in a different place.

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I don't think you're understanding me. I'm not really concerned with what is true in the sense of how people actually come to arrive at their beliefs. I am curious as to how people think they have arrived at their current beliefs.

I want to know how the believer makes sense of it.