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#1
04-29-2007, 08:29 AM
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Simple flop question
Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game Limit: $0.50/$1 8 players Converter Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players) <font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, 2 folds, Hero...? 
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#6
05-03-2007, 05:43 PM
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Re: Simple flop question
[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars Limit Omaha Ring game Limit: $0.50/$1 8 players Converter Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players) <font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, 2 folds, Hero...? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not folding here. I'm peeling one card and calling the turn if I make my flush or pick up a low draw. Folding here seems nearly criminal IMHO. You have the nut flush draw and a backdoor low draw and last I checked, people don't lead with full houses in this spot. But at these takes, they do like to lead with over pairs and wraps. Call. Re-evaluate the turn. The rest of this forum is a bunch of nits.
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#7
05-03-2007, 07:03 PM
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Re: Simple flop question
[ QUOTE ]
people don't lead with full houses in this spot. [/ QUOTE ]Tex - Some do. [ QUOTE ] But at these takes, they do like to lead with over pairs and wraps. [/ QUOTE ]Perhaps idiots do. This is a paired flop in a low limit game where four players have seen the flop! The rest of us are most likely to lead with trips. (And to somewhat disguise them, I also will usually lead with a full house). I might not lead with quads, unless nobody expected me to lead with quads. This lead is coming from the small blind. Could be anything. Could easily be trip eights. The pot is not big enough to justify the possible losing draw. It's not close. This is a clear fold. Buzz
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#8
05-03-2007, 07:42 PM
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Re: Simple flop question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] people don't lead with full houses in this spot. [/ QUOTE ]Tex - Some do. [ QUOTE ] But at these takes, they do like to lead with over pairs and wraps. [/ QUOTE ]Perhaps idiots do. This is a paired flop in a low limit game where four players have seen the flop! The rest of us are most likely to lead with trips. (And to somewhat disguise them, I also will usually lead with a full house). I might not lead with quads, unless nobody expected me to lead with quads. This lead is coming from the small blind. Could be anything. Could easily be trip eights. The pot is not big enough to justify the possible losing draw. It's not close. This is a clear fold. Buzz [/ QUOTE ] Buzz, Folding here is only right if he only does this with a full house, quads, or trip eights. In those instances we've got about a total of 12% equity in the pot and we're getting 5-1 IIRC. In many scenarios versus a random hand containing an eight OP is a 3-1 underdog getting 5-1 to call. here's an example of a 3-1 where we're against a reasonable hand from the villain: http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2620488 pokenum -o8 ah 3d ts kh - - qs 8d jc td -- 9h 8h 8s Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 9h 8h cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Ts 3d Ah Kh 180 180 640 0 160 0 0 0.274 Qs Jc Td 8d 550 640 180 0 0 0 0 0.726 But, if villain is ever leading this flop with a wrap- we're the 3-1 favorite: http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2620493 pokenum -o8 ah 3d ts kh - - 7s jd qd tc -- 9h 8h 8s Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 9h 8h cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Ts 3d Ah Kh 559 559 261 0 144 0 0 0.713 7s Tc Qd Jd 210 261 559 0 0 0 0 0.287 And if he leads with an over pair and a straight draw we're essentially a coin flip: http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2620494 pokenum -o8 ah 3d ts kh - - js jd tc 7d -- 9h 8h 8s Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 9h 8h cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Ts 3d Ah Kh 360 360 460 0 144 0 0 0.487 Js Tc Jd 7d 382 460 360 0 0 0 0 0.513 And for good measure, worst case scenario: http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2620496 pokenum -o8 ah 3d ts kh - - 8c 9s jd qc -- 9h 8h 8s Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 9h 8h cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Ts 3d Ah Kh 0 0 820 0 160 0 0 0.098 9s Qc 8c Jd 660 820 0 0 0 0 0 0.902 I think this is a good time to consider the range villain will bet with here. There's some opponents that make this a clear fold, but against a typical loose player at these stakes, I think it's in poor judgement to minimize his range to hands that have us as a significant underdog. Or you can just sum it up like I do when I'm in this spot. WE HAVE A FLUSH DRAW!!!! Seriously speaking, my normal line is to call the flop and fold UI on the turn, and only bet/raise river with a low and a flush. -Tex
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#9
05-03-2007, 07:58 PM
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Re: Simple flop question
I think the key is the backdoor low to this hand. Without it i would fold, with it I think calling could be correct. I think the best play here is to put in a small raise and it would completely clear up the situation IMO. He comes over the top your beat, if not your going to get to see the river for free most likely. Maybe he even folds.
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#10
05-03-2007, 10:54 PM
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Re: Simple flop question
[ QUOTE ]
I think the key is the backdoor low to this hand. [/ QUOTE ]Hello Flavius - Honestly, backdoor draws don't add that much. 64/990 = about 6.5% nut low plus 96/990 = about 9.5% 2nd nut low. And low is always for half the pot max.[ QUOTE ] I think the best play here is to put in a small raise [/ QUOTE ]This is a limit game. Any raise would be exactly one small bet. And then what? <ul type="square">If SB folds, all is fine an dandy. But if SB calls the situation is far from clear. And if SB re-raises, are we going to have Hero fold? Hero will get the beejeebers kicked out of him playing like that in a limit ring game against opponents with any degree of skill - unless he wants to play as tight as a clam - and then he won't lose much but he won't win much either and limit ring game play will become too boring to bear.[/list]Buzz
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