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#1
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maybe I talk too much
good live 20/40 game.
I limp ep with black fours, another limper, button raises, sb calls, the limper and I call. the button is weak tight. I think he's actually pretty bad. SB is very loose and the softest spot at the table - just generally bad. his preflop range is wide open. flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] checks to PFR, he bets, sb calls, I call. turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB quickly bets, I call, PFR folds I tell the dealer/table I'm thinking of a card. SB hears it. river: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB says "well there's one card that can beat me, let's see if you have it" and bets. |
#2
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Re: maybe I talk too much
He's probably telling the truth, in my experience, given your description (loose, generally bad). I'd probably pay off anyway, given the pot size, but a fold is likely the right move. Not crazy about the flop call, though it's not terrible. You're getting 10/1, but so few outs are clean and there are two active players. As played, I'd rather raise turn than just call to avoid giving a lone spade great odds to play. If you're reraised, you can probably give it up against a weak player.
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#3
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Re: maybe I talk too much
[ QUOTE ]
good live 20/40 game. I limp ep with black fours, another limper, button raises, sb calls, the limper and I call. the button is weak tight. I think he's actually pretty bad. SB is very loose and the softest spot at the table - just generally bad. his preflop range is wide open. flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] checks to PFR, he bets, sb calls, I call. turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB quickly bets, I call, PFR folds I tell the dealer/table I'm thinking of a card. SB hears it. river: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB says "well there's one card that can beat me, let's see if you have it" and bets. [/ QUOTE ] I think you need to raise that turn. The donk by the sb is going to scare off your weak tight PFR. You can't keep him in by calling. Raise now for two reasons: if your opponent has just one big spade and is semi-bluffing you want to charge him. Second, if he is betting with a pair to keep you from getting a free card when you possibly have the spade draw, then get money from him now while he may still like his hand. I think you are now beat. Pay him off. |
#4
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Re: maybe I talk too much
You need to raise the turn to get QsX,JsX,10sX hands to fold.
As for the river, dunno. Really depends on my read of the SB and his willingness to bluff here. |
#5
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Re: maybe I talk too much
surprised by all the love for raising the turn. I dont think the weak tight guy is going to fold a spade here -- any spades that he does have are weighted towards the bigger ones. I don't think he'll fold Qx, probably not Jx, maybe Tx. but if he has a big spade it's by far more likely to be the king or queen. and I dont think he can fold a good non-spade Ax hand if I just call. raising seems bad to me.
and I think I'm an underdog to SB. I think his bet is almost always 4x or a flush. |
#6
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Re: maybe I talk too much
[ QUOTE ]
surprised by all the love for raising the turn. I dont think the weak tight guy is going to fold a spade here -- any spades that he does have are weighted towards the bigger ones. I don't think he'll fold Qx, probably not Jx, maybe Tx. but if he has a big spade it's by far more likely to be the king or queen. and I dont think he can fold a good non-spade Ax hand if I just call. raising seems bad to me. and I think I'm an underdog to SB. I think his bet is almost always 4x or a flush. [/ QUOTE ] I don't understand your point about the weak tight not folding to the turn raise. We just made a straight. Do we want to give a flush draw a free card? He makes the straight one time in 5 and beats us. Don't we want to collect a bet the other four times? The sb is a poor player, could have anything, even aces up. A raise on the turn could get a free showdown if he has a small flush. |
#7
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Re: maybe I talk too much
Yeah, it's not like we're just drawing to a 4-high flush. We have a made hand. If the sb has any hand BUT a made flush, not raising is a mistake.
Any overall comments on the flop play? |
#8
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Re: maybe I talk too much
Also, if you're not raising that turn, you DEFINITELY should be folding on the flop.
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#9
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Re: maybe I talk too much
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand your point about the weak tight not folding to the turn raise. We just made a straight. Do we want to give a flush draw a free card? He makes the straight one time in 5 and beats us. Don't we want to collect a bet the other four times? The sb is a poor player, could have anything, even aces up. A raise on the turn could get a free showdown if he has a small flush. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I agree with this except for the free showdown part. If you are convinced that he doesn't necessarily have a flush here, I think raising the turn is a must for pure value purposes. Also, a weak tight guy will fold a lot of spades for 2 cold but maybe not for 1 bet, right? I may be making too big a generalization here, but real bad players love to try to check raise the turn here with a made flush because they are bad players. His donk on the turn really looks like two pair or he turned a set, both of which he will never fold if you raise the turn and bet the river. As played. I would call the river and not be surprised if I was still good. |
#10
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Re: maybe I talk too much
[ QUOTE ]
surprised by all the love for raising the turn. I dont think the weak tight guy is going to fold a spade here -- any spades that he does have are weighted towards the bigger ones. I don't think he'll fold Qx, probably not Jx, maybe Tx. [/ QUOTE ] I think there's 9 bets preflop, 12 on the flop (6 BB). On the turn, if you raise, you're offering LP raiser 9:2 or 4.5:1 odds on his flush draw. Assuming you or SB has a flush and LP has one big spade, this is 44:7 or about 6.5:1 to try to hit his flush draw. I don't think LP is actually going through these calculations in his head, but even he must come to some sort of approximation that he's getting 5:1 or whatever on his flush draw. I find it very hard to call two big bets on the turn without one of the top two spades. I mean, nothing is worse than paying a huge amount of money when you're drawing dead, and most decent players realize this. If he's weak tight, even better. You want him to fold a J/T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BTW, I probably check the river if SB calls my turn raise. If he 3-bets, I would usually fold. |
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