KK big pot

[elena_elphie]

This hand is from a donktastic live 20/40.

I am somewhere in MP with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG raises, UTG is a donk, but not the sort of donk that usually raises with nothing, although he might if he were in a mood.

UTG+1 3 bets, UTG+1 is the sort of donk that would 3-bet with nothing, I put him on two cards, but only because I can see both of them.

I cap.

Button who is mediocre but not insane cold calls 4 bets, I'm surprised.

SB calls, saying he is "half-in", BB can't fault that logic and calls as well. All call, 6 to the flop for 24SB.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Ugh, can't get much worse than that.

Checked to me I check button stares at me for a second and checks.

Turn is 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, I 3-bet....

Who likes or hates the flop check?

[Mr. Orange]

I hate it. Capping preflop and checking the flop is weak IMO. 4 players have already checked, fire away. Granted this isn't a great flop for KK but your probably still ahead. Giving a free card here is terrible. Try to clear the field a bit and hope you get the button on the turn which would be helpfull.

[elena_elphie]

I checked because I thought everyone would just call me on the flop, and I could clear the field on the turn. Getting rid of Ax or 33 would certainly be nice, but even they are correct to take one off here. So its the trade off of being able to protect our hand far better on the turn, versus the chance that button or sb or something might raise and give us a tiny bit of protection.

[wattsman]

We must protect our Big Pair, My Preshusssss....

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate it. Capping preflop and checking the flop is weak IMO. 4 players have already checked, fire away. Granted this isn't a great flop for KK but your probably still ahead. Giving a free card here is terrible. Try to clear the field a bit and hope you get the button on the turn which would be helpfull.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands are you really going to clear out for 1 bet on the flop?

b

[Chino987]

i wouldnt raise if i got bet into, but if no one bets, you should bet the flop.

plus some goof might decide to CR with a hand like 99 on the flop and then you might get protection anyways.

everyone just got infinite odds.

[Christian_Peters]

[ QUOTE ]

plus some goof might decide to CR with a hand like 99 on the flop and then you might get protection anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what? A c/r will not protect our hand in a pot this huge.

[HoneyBadger]

You can never protect against a flush or straight draw anyhow; a flush draw can call 4 cold on the turn easily, so can a good straight in principle, altough the flush is less risky. A good rule of thumb is to never fold a flush draw.

I find there's a common misconception about giving odds to draw: it's not a mistake. While it's true they are correct to call, you are still the one making most money. You are likely giving up quite a lot on the flop here, for the event that on the turn you can exactly raise in good position and face precisely a gutshot with 2 or more cold that would've hit his gutshot on the river -- but obviously not the turn. That sounds like a rather steep price to me.

And guess what; it was all in vain. Suppose BB folds, SB can expect the pot to be 24 BB if he calls, as all the others get plenty of odds when he does. On the river he can probably expect 4BB more, for a total of 28 BB. He needs to call 2 more, so he's getting 1:14, enough to call a 4 outer.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I find there's a common misconception about giving odds to draw: it's not a mistake. While it's true they are correct to call, you are still the one making most money. You are likely giving up quite a lot on the flop here, for the event that on the turn you can exactly raise in good position and face precisely a gutshot with 2 or more cold that would've hit his gutshot on the river -- but obviously not the turn. That sounds like a rather steep price to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

By checking the flop in the hopes that this precise scenario occurs (and given the read on UTG+1 I have to think it often will), we are charging those draws more money than we would be by betting the flop & again on the turn. And while this is not in & of itself a reason to check the flop, we are also saving ourselves a SB (or two) when an absolutely horrible turn card hits.

In a pot this size, no legit draw is folding before the river & no legit draw should. About the only thing we can protect against at any point in the hand is a naked ace, and even then not by facing them with a single bet. So you need to be thinking less of hand protection, and more of extracting value from the rest of the field; it just so happens that in this case we can best accomplish the latter in the same way that we can accomplish (as much as possible) the former.

And that's not even taking into account any potential metagame advantages you can get by taking this line & showing down a winner.

[Niediam]

Good play... one that people rarely make.