Free Showdown Play

[Justin A]

I'm convinced this is one of the worst plays that good players make. There are rather few spots where it is correct. Please post your situations where you think it's good and try to prove me wrong.

[Victor]

"I'm convinced this is one of the worst plays that good players make"

i doubt they are good players.

[bakku]

i can't remember the last time i used this play

[goofball]

1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused about point 2/3. Don't we want a hand that has little chance to improve? A hand where the river is only likely to hurt us? A hand that currently has value but may lose it once the river comes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought a free showdown raise was a possible value bet that was subject to losing its value.

This might be too simplistic, but my example would be:
Villain raises in MP. 1 call. Hero calls from Button with T9s. SB and BB are expected to call and do.

Flop: QT9
Villain bets, fold, Hero raises, blinds fold, Villain calls.

Turn: A
Villain donks, Hero raises.

Villain is unlikely to 3 bet with a bare ace. You can fold to the bet/3bet play with only 4 outs and I don't see any hands you're beating that a Villain is bet/3betting. The hand is only likely to weaken as bottom 2 is vulnerable to another Q, A, the opponents kicker, or his straight outs. Villain is likely to try for a check raise if his outs hit because of hero's aggression post-flop so I'm less concerned with river donks and paying 3 bets b/w turn/river.

Edit: Messed up postions.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty reasonable except number 3. If you have a decent chance to improve then you are really running more of a semibluff than a free showdown raise. Your ending paragraph could be number 6 and could be summarized as "your opponent has a chance to fold a better a better hand". This is actaully more important for you vegas guys I think where people make top pair laydowns and other bizarre stuff that we don't see here in cali.

Justin: I am having a hard time thinking of a good spot as well. Let me ponder a bit.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

the most common time i use it is in short-handed/blind steal spots where i am fairly confident that my opponent has a strong draw vs. my hand (flush + overs).

for example:

I open in the CO 5 handed with 77, bb calls.

flop comes J45 with 2 of a soooot. he c/r's the flop.

turn: offsoot 2

he bets i gas.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

the most common time i use it is in short-handed/blind steal spots where i am fairly confident that my opponent has a strong draw vs. my hand (flush + overs).

for example:

I open in the CO 5 handed with 77, bb calls.

flop comes J45 with 2 of a soooot. he c/r's the flop.

turn: offsoot 2

he bets i gas.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty decent spot. Especially if your image is such that villian can fold 9T or TJ since he knows you are tight/good and that when you raise here it will almost always mean it will cost him 2 more BB to get to SD.

[Hobbs.]

A somewhat standard one when online games were slightly more passive than they are today.

You open with AQ in the CO and the bb calls. You get c/r'ed on a 2 tone flop and see the turn. The turn is a blank and you raise his bet planning on checking the river behind.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

the most common time i use it is in short-handed/blind steal spots where i am fairly confident that my opponent has a strong draw vs. my hand (flush + overs).

for example:

I open in the CO 5 handed with 77, bb calls.

flop comes J45 with 2 of a soooot. he c/r's the flop.

turn: offsoot 2

he bets i gas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is raising the turn here better than calling down?