co-ops

[ShakeZula06]

I have been meaning to ask some of the more socialist leaning posters here about these. They interest me. For what reason does the market in general select against them? How would your opinion of capitalism change if they became the norm (meaning keep capitalism the way it is now, just that co-ops are now a much more popular business model)? Do you think it would be possible for that to occur and why or why not?

Obviously non-socialist posters can weigh in also.

[Kaj]

A related question I have is: What stops socialists from forming socialist societies today under a capitalist system? Nothing as far as I can tell really prevents people of like belief to form a self-sufficient society, reject capital, enforce equality, whatever. And I don't mean that to be smug. In fact, I would be interested in living in a voluntary commune, but one that I have the option to leave if I think powers are being abused.

[Dan.]

Kaj,

Many exist. But they usually ask for a minimum time commitment.

Op,

I'm not sure what you mean "the market selects against them." There are many, thriving co-ops (and employee owned stores, though obviously those are different, but they're related to socialist-leaning practices) in my home area, Madison, WI. I definitely seek them out, as do many of my friends, to do business with them. So that would seem to be an example of the market choosing in favor of them.

If they became the norm meaning...capitalist did not exist? That would be my idea of sustainable socialism then, no? Business still operate competitively, but the workers/users own the capital--is that still capitalism?

And yeah, I think it's extremely possible, given that existing co-ops thrive of which I am aware.

[ShakeZula06]

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I'm not sure what you mean "the market selects against them." There are many, thriving co-ops (and employee owned stores, though obviously those are different, but they're related to socialist-leaning practices) in my home area, Madison, WI. I definitely seek them out, as do many of my friends, to do business with them. So that would seem to be an example of the market choosing in favor of them.

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Hmm. Not that I'm looking for them but I never notice them in my area (Fenton, Mo, a suburban town outside St Louis).

Do these co-ops successfully compete with other businesses on price and quality, or is it because the people in that area support the "movement" so to speak, and are willing to pay a little higher and/or lesser quality?
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If they became the norm meaning...capitalist did not exist? That would be my idea of sustainable socialism then, no? Business still operate competitively, but the workers/users own the capital--is that still capitalism?


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I'm speaking more of worker co-ops I suppose. I would still consider that capitalism. What I'm envissioning here is roughly the same amount of companies with the same amount of employees now, just that they are employee-owned. It's still privately owned, some co-ops do better then others, and theres competition among the different co-ops. I would consider that capitalism, no? At the very least it's free market which I'm always down with.

Also another question, how do people enter and leave co-ops? Would it be kind of similar to the stock market, but only owners can get shares?

[Dan.]

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Do these co-ops successfully compete with other businesses on price and quality, or is it because the people in that area support the "movement" so to speak, and are willing to pay a little higher and/or lesser quality?

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Both. One grocery store in particular has amazingly lower prices and is employee owned/operated. Many of the others also fill a niche market for certain goods, or they are just much more conveniently located than chain-alternatives. But there is definitely a healthy support for the movement as well, which doesn't hurt.

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I'm speaking more of worker co-ops I suppose. I would still consider that capitalism. What I'm envissioning here is roughly the same amount of companies with the same amount of employees now, just that they are employee-owned. It's still privately owned, some co-ops do better then others, and theres competition among the different co-ops. I would consider that capitalism, no? At the very least it's free market which I'm always down with.

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Interestingly enough, that's basically how I view a viable socialism. Collectivist micro, capitalism macro. Like capitalism without capitalist.

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Also another question, how do people enter and leave co-ops? Would it be kind of similar to the stock market, but only owners can get shares?

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I really don't know how they operate logistically. From an outside perspective, there are coops where patrons can pay a monthly due and in return you receive lower priced goods than nonmembers and can vote on the workings of the firm.

[Borodog]

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Interestingly enough, that's basically how I view a viable socialism. Collectivist micro, capitalism macro. Like capitalism without capitalist.

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I do not think that word means what you think it means. There is nothing about capitalism that prescribes who can and who cannot own capital.

[NT!]

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A related question I have is: What stops socialists from forming socialist societies today under a capitalist system? Nothing as far as I can tell really prevents people of like belief to form a self-sufficient society, reject capital, enforce equality, whatever. And I don't mean that to be smug. In fact, I would be interested in living in a voluntary commune, but one that I have the option to leave if I think powers are being abused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where would they purchase health care? If they are agrarian, how will they pay property taxes, rent or a mortgage? If they aren't agrarian, how will they acquire food?

Those are just a few obstacles.

OP, the most successful co-ops I have seen are in relatively affluent areas. Some are supported by government dollars as well (such as CSAs where I used to live in the Berkshires). Most are centered around agriculture but I suppose some other types exist.

In general small farms have struggled under recent market conditions, and domestic farms in general have not done so hot without subsidies, etc. So it's no surprise that co-ops are not taking off. They fill a niche - one where cost is secondary to concerns like source and method of production (such as organic or local foods). I think this is an interesting movement but I don't think it's something that appeals to the majority of Americans. Nor is it particularly feasible in dense urban or even suburban areas.

[Kaj]

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Where would they purchase health care?

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The same place they'd get it if they lived in their utopian egalitarian society. Or does such a society have slaves that work as doctors?

[NT!]

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Where would they purchase health care?

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The same place they'd get it if they lived in their utopian egalitarian society. Or does such a society have slaves that work as doctors?

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You asked what prevents people from doing this in TODAY's society, not a utopian egalitarian society. Will a doctor come to live with them? If so, where will he get medical supplies? Will they manufacture them on the commune? What about prescriptions? What about diagnostic equipment? What happens if the doctor dies? etc.

[Kaj]

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Where would they purchase health care?

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The same place they'd get it if they lived in their utopian egalitarian society. Or does such a society have slaves that work as doctors?

[/ QUOTE ]

You asked what prevents people from doing this in TODAY's society, not a utopian egalitarian society. Will a doctor come to live with them? If so, where will he get medical supplies? Will they manufacture them on the commune? What about prescriptions? What about diagnostic equipment? What happens if the doctor dies? etc.

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Where do the doctors come from in tomorrow's egalitarian society? Where does the medical equipment come from? Who builds MRI machines without capital? How about just Xray machines? Get the idea?