Is not using ICM, SNGPT and other software a big disadvantage?

[Dr_Wonderful]

I am a winning player and only use pokertracker and PAHUD as far as software goes. I feel like I have a very good idea of when to push and fold in the late game, in a lot of discussions I hear some of these calculators talked about like they are absolutely crucial. What kind of ROI boost would you expect to gain from using these if you're already a good winning player at middle limits, 16s and 27s, say 20% ROI. I've been stubborn about getting these things as they confuse me a bit and I don't feel like learning new software, am I missing out on too much or is it more of a personal preference? Does everyone think these are crucial? This might not me the proper forum to post this in, but I am only concerned with the opinions of SNG players. Thanks.

[futuredoc85]

well for one thing your ROI at the 27s isnt 20% long term unless you are playing very few tables. 16s thats probably possible. SNGPT/SNGWHIZ will help a ton for sure considering the price is less than 4 buyins for a 27 player.

[Dr_Wonderful]

8 tabling 16s for 20% ROI, kind of small sample size. 1300 or so. I might need more robot in my game, try making too many moves at the 16s and costs me pretty often. I'm afraid of change though, how much would all of the software I would need cost combined?

[weknowhowtolive]

I in no way think they are crucial. They may help, they also make you play pretty much like a robot.

If they are so crucial....why do so many players who play exclusively live just do it the way you (and i) do it?

[DevinLake]

They are probably not crucial at lower limits. But, at high limits, where your opponents are playing close to perfect mathematically, how are you going to get your edge?

The live analogy is not a good one. For one, I doubt very many people make a living playing live sit n goes. Second, they probably suck.

[Dr_Wonderful]

[ QUOTE ]
They are probably not crucial at lower limits. But, at high limits, where your opponents are playing close to perfect mathematically, how are you going to get your edge?

The live analogy is not a good one. For one, I doubt very many people make a living playing live sit n goes. Second, they probably suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

These were kind of my thoughts. At low limits it's almost impossible to put people on any kind of sensicle range anyways, so doing math on guessed ranges wouldn't be all that helpful, right?

[DevinLake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are probably not crucial at lower limits. But, at high limits, where your opponents are playing close to perfect mathematically, how are you going to get your edge?

The live analogy is not a good one. For one, I doubt very many people make a living playing live sit n goes. Second, they probably suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

These were kind of my thoughts. At low limits it's almost impossible to put people on any kind of sensicle range anyways, so doing math on guessed ranges wouldn't be all that helpful, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying you can probably beat low levels just by not being terrible in the early levels, and have some idea to steal the blinds late.

But, regardless of their ranges, I guarantee that you are missing a lot of EV in many spots.

[chaz64]

Dr. W,

I also have a small sample size, but my ROI is around yours at the $16s and FWIW I have not used any software other than Pokerstove. I played with the ICM calculator a few times just to get a feel for different situations but that was it.

[ger664]

I think it is more critical to learn how to do +$EV calculations with Pokerstove and an ICM calculator first. This gives you a better understanding of it. Then get the tools and use them to make life easier and allow you to play with different situations.

[Guthrie]

After 7,000 SnGs using ICM and SNGPT my ROI is zero, so just keep doing what you're doing.

It doesn't really matter if you use SNGPT to confirm that all your pushes were +9% when you get called and bust out nearly every time anyway.