Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?

ArtMonkRules · #1 02-25-2007, 02:22 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070225/...O7Sg8jOnqs0NUE

Why has it become so politically correct and almost expected for people in public office to try to act as if slavery is something that we, in the 21st century somehow need to apologize for, as if we had anything to do with it?

And furthermore; I will submit to you that slavery, for all its evil, was a very good thing for America, and for black people in the long run..... and before you jump on me for making such an "ignorant, racist" statement, hear me out, because my point is hardly a racist one...

There's one fact that people who live by the dogma of political correctness seem to be ignoring here; without slavery there are NO black people in America.... and who wouldn't agree (besides a true racist) that such a thing would be to the detriment of our country?

Had slavery never happened there would be no Martin Luther King Jr. No Mohhammed Ali, no Hariet Tubman, no Jazz, no Rock n, roll... the NFL and NBA would be really lame, and there would be no peanut butter (and I really like peanut butter) America has allowed people of African dissent the opportunity to thrive, and they have changed the very fabric of our society and culture in so many ways that it's hard to imagine what our country would be like if it was lilly white

So Why then, are we apologizing for slavery? Shouldn't we be appreciating it for all the wonderful things its done for our country, and for the Africans that were brought here?

almostbusto · #2 02-25-2007, 02:30 PM

wildly making counterfactual claims just makes you seem like an idiot.

if there were no slavery you have almost no idea what would have happened. ie there is no way you can claim that peanut butter would NEVER be invented for obvious reasons. it may well have been invented earlier if there were no slavery. there is absolutely no way to know.

ArtMonkRules · #3 02-25-2007, 02:55 PM

Wait..... so who sounds like the idiot??? I'm making the argument here that having black people in this country(which is a DIRECT result of slavery) has ultimately had a positive effect on our culture.... and your argument is THAT PEANUT BUTTER MAY IN FACT HAVE BEEN INVENTED SOONER!? Please explain to me what is counter-factual in my post?

almostbusto · #4 02-25-2007, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wait..... so who sounds like the idiot??? I'm making the argument here that having black people in this country(which is a DIRECT result of slavery) has ultimately had a positive effect on our culture.... and your argument is THAT PEANUT BUTTER MAY IN FACT HAVE BEEN INVENTED SOONER!? Please explain to me what is counter-factual in my post?

[/ QUOTE ]

peanut butter is an example, it wasn't an argument. please read a little more carefully.

my claim is that you can't argue counterfactuals.

"I'm making the argument here that having black people in this country(which is a DIRECT result of slavery) has ultimately had a positive effect on our culture."

this argument is based on complete nonsense. if there was no slavery you can't say what would have happened to this country. you can't even make claims as to the demographics that this country would have. you can't take one element out of a causal chain then extrapolate based on that when you are dealing with such a complex system.

ArtMonkRules · #5 02-25-2007, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this argument is based on complete nonsense. if there was no slavery you can't say what would have happened to this country. you can't even make claims as to the demographics that this country would have. you can't take one element out of a causal chain then extrapolate based on that when you are dealing with such a complex system.

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If you'll read my article again, you'll see that I'm not speculating what WOULD HAVE happened had slavery never happened... I'm arguing what, and who, WOULD NOT have happened. You, and some other posters are attacking my speculation from the opinion that have no proof, and it amazes me how completely you miss the point... specualting how different the world might be, had certain events in history not happened, or happened differently (which they easily might have) is not a matter of proof, its a matter of imagination.... and some of you people obviously are lacking in that department.

almostbusto · #6 02-25-2007, 03:30 PM

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If you'll read my article again, you'll see that I'm not speculating what WOULD HAVE happened had slavery never happened... I'm arguing what, and who, WOULD NOT have happened. You, and some other posters are attacking my speculation from the opinion that have no proof, and it amazes me how completely you miss the point... specualting how different the world might be, had certain events in history not happened, or happened differently (which they easily might have) is not a matter of proof, its a matter of imagination.... and some of you people obviously are lacking in that department.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is the suppressed argument that if MLK, Ali, the inventor of peanut butter, hadn't existed, the world would be worse off.

there may have been much much more successful civil rights activists and boxers had there been no slavery. you just don't know.

you are saying theses events wouldn't have happened, and therefore, we would be worse off.

i am just saying you are trying to compare to two universes. this universe. and the universe where slavery was abolished when the country was founded. you have no idea what that latter universe is like. so you can't make comparisons.

maybe you can conclude that the second universe has no MLK, but it could have a superior MLK substitute. or maybe there were no world wars in the second universe. maybe there was no great depression in the second universe. maybe cancer and AIDS has been cured in the second universe.

ArtMonkRules · #7 02-25-2007, 03:21 PM

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my claim is that you can't argue counterfactuals.

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I can argue whatever the hell I want.

natedogg · #8 02-25-2007, 07:03 PM

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if there were no slavery you have almost no idea what would have happened. ie there is no way you can claim that peanut butter would NEVER be invented for obvious reasons. it may well have been invented earlier if there were no slavery. there is absolutely no way to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to hijack this thread, but your reasoning is spot-on and perfectly contradicts those who argue that without govt funding we'd never have the benefit of technology X that was funded by govt.

natedogg

catalyst · #9 02-25-2007, 02:37 PM

Arguing that our country would be better/worse without black people seems like an impossible argument.

Johnny Drama · #10 02-25-2007, 02:58 PM

Virginia didn't apologize for slavery, it expressed "profound regret". The exact wording of the resolution was a big issue, with many taking the position that those alive today had nothing to apologize for (one delegate said it would be like asking the Jews to apologize for killing Jesus). Also, it's ridiculous to think there would be no black people, as there would still have been immigration. There was never Asian slavery, yet Asian people have found their way over to the U.S..