What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?

[fretelöo]

There are a few regulars at my tables that have stats like this 25/20/2.5.

How do I deal with them (changing table isn't much of an option as they play at more than one and only so and so many are available; changing seats isn't much of an option either, as seats usually are quite contested)? 3bet them with any of my LP-raising hands?

They have been among my best money donators, but frequently I feel lost when they raise and I get something like AJo /ATs against them.

And what about KQ, A3s, 9Ts? Should I basically view their raise as a limp, not worry too much about my implieds with 89s an cold call?

[winkydinky85]

Three Bet them more often. They normally do not take well to aggression back to them. You need to isolate them and use position and strong holdings to punish them for being too loose.

[fretelöo]

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Three Bet them more often. They normally do not take well to aggression back to them. You need to isolate them and use position and strong holdings to punish them for being too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that much is clear, but what exactly is a strong holding here? I mean, I know this is a vague question but as you say - they don't like being played back at. So what usually happens is, I fold for half an hour about three times AJo agains them, and then, when they raise again, I 3-bet AK and they fold on the flop or latest the turn. So, I make something like 1.5BB on each of my monsters or so, but inbetween they steal all those slightly +EV situations that I would normally like to exploit (i.e. small pp, SCs etc.)

I've seen them raise with K8s, A3s, A6o, T8s, QJs, QTo, etc. (all after limpers), 3bet from the BB with J7o etc.

So, I think I should be a considerable fav. with AT+s/o against them if I use caution post flop. However, pajo nicely summarized the reasons why you should normally not start getting into a pissing contest here and why I often feel so uneasy...

[NigelSmith]

You know, I was thinking of posting almost exactly the same question last night...

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Yes, that much is clear, but what exactly is a strong holding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was wondering. If you know someone is raising the top 20% of hands, how much stronger does your hand need to be to 3-bet? Top 10%? Top 5%?

[OziBattler]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I was thinking of posting almost exactly the same question last night...

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, that much is clear, but what exactly is a strong holding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was wondering. If you know someone is raising the top 20% of hands, how much stronger does your hand need to be to 3-bet? Top 10%? Top 5%?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think of it in terms of %ages etc mainly cos I suck saying "the top 5% is hands xyz" and I dont have pokerstove fired up whilst playing. I do think however that at the table when i see my hud stats on villian and my cards that I can assess my hand against his range and make the right move. Maybe im being holistic about it but I think it depends on reads and your feel for the villian in question. It may also depend on what you feel comfortable playing against them and how well you play postflop AND how well they play postflop.

FWIW I requested that the compilator Loyalguard do a post on playing against LAGs (not laggy idiots but "thinking" lags) some time back and the end result was that he found this was a very difficult task and as such there is no such compilation. Loyalguard is "the man" when it comes to compilations so if he couldnt do it then I think thats a fair indication of the problems with playing against aggressive but maybe smart and not insane type of players...they put you to the test often.

[fretelöo]

Ok, winkey, that's a start. Obv. dependent on absolute position as well, but let's take an average of AJ+; ATs+; KQs; and 99+.

I have position on them and my stats are over >1000 hands for both of them. What's your range (just off the top of your head)?

[NigelSmith]

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I dont think of it in terms of %ages etc mainly cos I suck saying "the top 5% is hands xyz" and I dont have pokerstove fired up whilst playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither -- I'm thinking more about the day after, when I go through the hands I played against them trying to see if I played things correctly (which, hopefully, feeds back into how I play them next time).

How do the session reviewers (free pimp chance, Aussie!) decide whether someone is playing to loose or too tight against an easy raiser?

[mmctrab]

Well, the problem is that they may not be raising with the top 20% of hands. They could be raising with garbage, and then continuation betting the flop, and maybe even the turn and river as well.

[fretelöo]

Ok,

here's what I found (just posting this as an example for one of them):
I've seen him raise (I always assume that he'd raise stronger than that as well):

Btn: A3s; AQo; 77; K9o; Q6s;
CO: J9o; T9s; A3s; AJo; QTs;
MP3: 97s; A5o;
MP2: A8s; KTs;
MP1: J8s; A3s; QJs; QJo; 77;
UTG+2: 66; A3s; A8o;

If we assume he'd auto-raise his top10% plus what I've shown here, we come out at ~20%. If we always add the stronger hands (i.e. A4s if I've seen him raise A3s) as well, we get this range: { 66+, A3s+, K6s+, Q6s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, A5o+, K9o+, QTo+, J9o+ }, which is ~28% of his hands. A wee much but close enough.

If we want to be a favourite of at least 60:40 (is that enough?), we end up with this range for ourselves: { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, ATo+, KQo }

Winkey's range is just about as good: 58.7:41.3: { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, ATo+, KJo+ }

[OziBattler]

some random ramblings without any specific hands.....

Generally trying to outlag the semi-lags with mediocre holdings isnt a great idea. These are the guys that cause me the most grief at the table because i never quite know where I am at with them. if I am going to fold I fold early in the hand. I want position on these guys. Getting HU with them is often good as getting sandwiched between a couple of these guys usually sucks. I usually dont bother trying to bluff them. I think it is okay to c/c these guys down if you have something decent or think they are FOS. Ace high sometimes wins against them but they usually arent total tards so choose your spots carefully. I don think that if they have position on you then lots of them are prone to try and bluff outright or semi bluff you especially if you check it too them. Letting them bet your reasonable hands for you and showing them a winning hand at SD can really piss them off. Check raising them with monsters is hella fun. these are just a few genreal thoughts I have...there will be exceptions. I need an ENTER key. found it

maybe it is a personal thing due to issues ive had htat have caused me to spew against these guys. It is usually the other players at the able who make it worth me staying at the table