Building a Bankroll For Newbies, SnG Version?

[vowels]

Hi. Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there a Building a Bankroll for Newbies thread for Sit and Go players similar to the excellent ones done for ring games by MrWookiee, Gregatron, and Homer?

If so, could someone link me to it? Also if there are any websites you think might help me out, could you link those too?

Thanks for any help.

[playersare]

technically, you can't "build a bankroll" with SNG's because the most any site will give you back on your tourney fees is 100%. the reason low limit ring game whoring works is because there are bonus structures that pay you more than the attributed rake you give back to them.

that being said, you still want to save as much on SNG fees as possible. the highest percentages of tourney rebate via bonuses I know of are as follows:

Poker Stars (100%)
Bodog (100%)
Pokerroom (71%)
Pacific (55%)
Full Tilt (42%)

however, the only way to guarantee a profit playing SNG's in the long run is to WIN some.

[blindfold]

id also like to add that "winning" doesnt always win you money in the long run at the low levels. for example, if the buyin in $10 and third place pays $14 (minus the original buyin) you will lose money in the long run. This is because you will only be making $4 on the games that you place 3rd in and losing $10 on the ones you lose.

if you dont have a large bank roll you shouldnt be playing SNG's because the highest sustainable win rate at a single- table SNG is somewhere around 35-45%, youre better off building it up in a low limit ring first.

online tournaments are a push fest man, all about tactics and coin flips and less about real solid post flop poker

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
id also like to add that "winning" doesnt always win you money in the long run at the low levels. for example, if the buyin in $10 and third place pays $14 (minus the original buyin) you will lose money in the long run. This is because you will only be making $4 on the games that you place 3rd in and losing $10 on the ones you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Winning always wins you money in a SNG, sure there are some MTTs where the bottom of the payout doesn't cover the entry but those are usually big buyin events where lots of people win seats via satellite but we will ignore those for now. If you came in 3rd in every SNG you would do pretty well, I think you are confusing this with the fact that even if you place in the money 45% of the time, if most of those are 3rd place finishes you will probably lose money. OTOH someone who only moneys 35% but most of those are 1st will have a nice ROI.[ QUOTE ]


if you dont have a large bank roll you shouldnt be playing SNG's because the highest sustainable win rate at a single- table SNG is somewhere around 35-45%, youre better off building it up in a low limit ring first.


[/ QUOTE ]
This makes no sence. If you play $25 max NL-ring and sit with $25 and play for an hour (about the length of a SNG)a reasonable expected winrate might be $3 for about an 12% return (thats 12BBlinds/hour (likely >10BB/100 in PT terms)which seems pretty good). A decent SNG player at the 20s can easily achieve 20% ROIs with fairly low varience.
[ QUOTE ]

online tournaments are a push fest man, all about tactics and coin flips and less about real solid post flop poker

[/ QUOTE ]
SNG strategy is just different than ring, knowing when not to take a coin flip and when to force your opponent to put all his chips in the middle are key to winning SNGs. Most lowlimit NL is just sitting around waiting to flop sets and stack people. Lowstakes limit is simply betting for value at every opportunity and not trying to outthink yourself.

"Solid" poker can mean a lot of different things to different people. To me it means a winning strategy, usually not the best but good enough to be a solid winner at whatever you are playing.

[blindfold]

[ QUOTE ]

Winning always wins you money in a SNG, sure there are some MTTs where the bottom of the payout doesn't cover the entry but those are usually big buyin events where lots of people win seats via satellite but we will ignore those for now. If you came in 3rd in every SNG you would do pretty well, I think you are confusing this with the fact that even if you place in the money 45% of the time, if most of those are 3rd place finishes you will probably lose money. OTOH someone who only moneys 35% but most of those are 1st will have a nice ROI.[ QUOTE ]


of course, we both know about variance and the impact it has on ITM and ROI. i was responding to the statement that 'playersare' made about building a bankroll just by winning some. this is a common misunderstanding made with SNG's. the original OP delcared himself a newbie, sending him off with advice to simply, 'win' would be a diservice and he needs to understand this to build a bankroll



[/ QUOTE ]
This makes no sence. If you play $25 max NL-ring and sit with $25 and play for an hour (about the length of a SNG)a reasonable expected winrate might be $3 for about an 12% return (thats 12BBlinds/hour (likely >10BB/100 in PT terms)which seems pretty good). A decent SNG player at the 20s can easily achieve 20% ROIs with fairly low varience.
[ QUOTE ]


but he's not a decent player playing the 20's, he's new to this, why not set his expectations straight?



[/ QUOTE ]
SNG strategy is just different than ring, knowing when not to take a coin flip and when to force your opponent to put all his chips in the middle are key to winning SNGs. Most lowlimit NL is just sitting around waiting to flop sets and stack people. Lowstakes limit is simply betting for value at every opportunity and not trying to outthink yourself.

"Solid" poker can mean a lot of different things to different people. To me it means a winning strategy, usually not the best but good enough to be a solid winner at whatever you are playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point but you must admit that the dynamics of a cheap SNG are predictable, so predictable in fact that people like Aleo write scripts to follow without learning how to actually play the game.

youre forgetting that tournaments were spawned out of cash games and not the other way around. there is very little flop, turn, and river play in an SNG to speak of.

what is poker at a fundamental level? im sure it doesnt include bubble play. new players tackle that later

[blindfold]

id like to clairfy something, when i referred to Aleo script i was trying to say that it's written for people who didnt need to know how to play, i wasnt referring to Aleo and his skill level

[jmillerdls]

SNGs are a different beast than ring games. You can't even compare them. Sure, you don't have nearly as much postflop play, but preflop play is much more dynamic.

Ring games are not a better alternative, they are simply an alternative. Different strokes for different folks. Just like some people prefer NL to Limit...some people prefer SNG to NL...you can find just as many opportunities to outplay and be profitable in any form...

[vowels]

[ QUOTE ]
This makes no sence. If you play $25 max NL-ring and sit with $25 and play for an hour (about the length of a SNG)a reasonable expected winrate might be $3 for about an 12% return (thats 12BBlinds/hour (likely >10BB/100 in PT terms)which seems pretty good). A decent SNG player at the 20s can easily achieve 20% ROIs with fairly low varience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, would you have any (and all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) suggestions for the Buy-In level to start in for someone having a $200 dollar bankroll?

My skill level I would estimate as decent to solid. I've played mostly play money games, but lots and lots of them at the highest limits, where you'd assume the competition is somewhat better. I've also played 4 real money $1 SnGs over at Royal Vegas, and I've come in the money, and come in 1st, all 4 times. (Not that I expect that win rate to continue... unfortunately.) In the play money games, I come in the money way over 50%. I tracked it for a little while and it was over 65%. Talking to some other play money players, I've built up winnings in 6 months that it took them years to build. But most importantly, imo, is that I do all the reading. I go through poker book after poker book, learning as much as I can from them. And I plan to keep doing this.

So, having a *general* idea of my skill level, and knowing my $200 bankroll, would you have any recommendations for how to proceed initially? What Buy-Ins, or how many SnGs a day, or how many at a time, or bonus whoring, or really anything at all you'd like to offer, since you seem to be somewhat more optimistic about the possibility of starting off in SnGs.

Thanks for any help.

[vowels]

[ QUOTE ]
if you dont have a large bank roll you shouldnt be playing SNG's because the highest sustainable win rate at a single- table SNG is somewhere around 35-45%, youre better off building it up in a low limit ring first.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't the general rule for Sit and Go's to have 50 times the Buy In to minimize your risk of ruin, just as it's 200 times the Big Blind to minimize your risk of ruin in the ring games? I'm going to be starting off with 200 times the Buy In.(A $200 dollar bankroll starting at the $1 SnGs I was thinking, unless someone knows a better strategy.)

Also, the thing is that my game is geared to No-Limit play. I can make a lot more money at No-Limit SnGs because I have gotten decent at laying odds, which of course doesn't factor in much at ring games.

[vowels]

[ QUOTE ]
technically, you can't "build a bankroll" with SNG's because the most any site will give you back on your tourney fees is 100%. the reason low limit ring game whoring works is because there are bonus structures that pay you more than the attributed rake you give back to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that SnGs could take advantage of the bonus whoring as well. One SnG = so many raked hands. Is this incorrect? Bonus whoring is definitely in my plans for building a bankroll. I had planned on following MrWookie's guidelines to a tee, just substituting low-level SnGs for low-level ring games? This not viable?