Razz - Value river raise

[Slide]

Only question in hand is if the river raise is fairly standard and if there are times when this is just a call.
Also if a crying call to a reraise is justified.

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (5.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___raises

5th Street - (4.65 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (6.65 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River - (8.65 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

Total pot: (12.65 BB)

[Sevenfold]

looks good, I raise here every time except vs. the tightest of players, and I'm gone by 5th against them anyway.

Easy muck to a 3 bet against a normal player.

If you are going to call 3 bets, don't raise.

[LetItBe]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to call 3 bets, don't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. There are several situations where folding to a 3-bet is the correct play.

[Sevenfold]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to call 3 bets, don't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. There are several situations where folding to a 3-bet is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, folding to three bets is the correct play.

Therefore If you ARE NOT going to fold to three bets, don't raise. (Didn't I already say that?)

[LetItBe]

You did, and I still disagree. I think there are situations where a raise is warranted AND a 3-bet fold is warranted. Skalnsky talks about it in SOP. Generally I would agree with you, but there are situations where you can profitably raise (as a bluff) and have to fold to a 3-bet.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to call 3 bets, don't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. There are several situations where folding to a 3-bet is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, folding to three bets is the correct play.

Therefore If you ARE NOT going to fold to three bets, don't raise. (Didn't I already say that?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you two are in violent agreement

[LetItBe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you two are in violent agreement

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Sevenfold]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to call 3 bets, don't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. There are several situations where folding to a 3-bet is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, folding to three bets is the correct play.

Therefore If you ARE NOT going to fold to three bets, don't raise. (Didn't I already say that?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you two are in violent agreement

[/ QUOTE ]

I worded it two different ways. Let, you need to go over what I am saying more carefully.

Point one---it is a VALUE raise, therefor a slight money favorite.

Point two---If we are slight money favs to raise, we are huge dogs to the three bet.

Point three---therefore we must fold to three bets.

Point four---So our profit from the river comes from value raising and mucking to the 3rd bet.

Point five---If you are going to call three bets, repeat, if you cannot lay this hand down for three bets, THAT is when you should not raise.

You seem to think I am saying to call the three bets, and I am not.

Many players just cannot lay down their hands for that last bet. If you know you just have to see the other guys hand, then you should not be raising.

Last try.
Raising river and being called, need to be a slight fav, risking 1 extra bet in an attempt to win 1.

Raising river and willing to call reraise, risking 2 bets to win 1.

In the latter scenario you need to be a much larger fav.

If you tell me one more time that I can fold to three bets I will make a voodoo doll of you and check raise it for a solid month.

[SGspecial]

to answer your question, given the play so far and your read on him, a raise is justified and a fold to a 3 bet is an easy one with your board. you may want to evaluate when a raise was correct on all the other streets too.

[SCSTWG]

Borderline raise for me vs. the A-3-4 board. The only thing I like is that the 2's are pretty much dead.