Middle Set

[amulet]

10/20 full table. for some reason buyin at this place was a max of $5000. i have about $5K villain has about the same, 3ed player is a short stack, about $1800.

villain is unknown, however we have been playing awhile and he seems ok. over played a big pair once, but again he seems like a solid player (and from the table chat he is a daily regular there). villain is utg and makes it $80 2 callers including the short stack to me in late middle. i call with 77, 2 behind call. 6 players to the flop.

flop Q 7 4

utg checks, next player checks, short stack makes it $450, i raise to $1500, 2 folds, then UTG moves all in (about 5K). short stack calls, me?

[mperich]

bbv? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

-Mike

[lapoker17]

uhh, call.

[lapoker17]

also, you seem to flop second nuts more than anyone in the history of poker.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
also, you seem to flop second nuts more than anyone in the history of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
no, he just thinks about folding it m ore than anyone in the history of poker. OP, if you're ever going to fold middle set on this board, then I hate your raise. Did you think you were bluffing? Or that they would just be nice enough to call off their stack with a hand that is obviously beat and not even consider bluffing or the fact that you might be...?

[fsuplayer]

when i first saw the OP, i had a couple of ideas about who will respond to this thread.

thx for not disappointing, guys.

[amulet]

while not saying what i did, i need to point out that the utg saw a raise and healhty reraise with 2 players still left to act. he then check raises all in - into a bettor and reraiser (and he had to know i am on the tight side). if the stacks were a lot deeper i think folding is likely the correct play. but here they are not that deep.

if you think i flop the 2nd nuts a lot, maybe it is because i post what i consider difficult decisions, or hands where i made the incorrect choice. i want to learn from others, and hear other players thought processes.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm not saying your post is necessarily bad. But you have a 480ish pot and a short stack betting 450 into it, leaving himself with around 1300 in what will be a 1300ish pot. The board is completely dry except for one OESD and a few gutshots. Basically, there is no reason to raise against the short stack. If you call, you might entice the preflop raiser or someone else to make a move on the pot, trying to isolate the short stack. If you raise, on this dry a board, it looks like you are trying to isolate the short stack. If you had QJ here, your raise is probably good. You might get the preflop raiser to lay down a slight better hand if he had checked it looking for pot control, and your hand might be good against the short stack (assuming he's bad).

So, basically, if you were raising I think it should be in order to ENTICE a move from the preflop raiser and you should be instacalling. If you're not trying to induce a second-level thinking move from the preflop raiser, then I think you should flat call in order to disguise your hand. Either way, you should never dump this unless the preflop raiser is very bad and will have you beat 100% of the time (which basically means he will never make this move with less and that he will always check top set here - and no one in this game could possibly be that predictable - or at least I doubt it.)

[SmileyEH]

The fact that the shortstack called means he probably has a Q anyway. So really only 1 combination most of the time that can beat you.

[EmpireMaker2]

fold