Let's invent a hold'em variant

[AKQJ10]

The other night in that last lucid moment before falling asleep, I got to wondering what hold'em would look like if players had three hole cards and four community cards. For the sake of argument, let's say players get all three hole cards before the first betting round, the flop is two cards, and everything else proceeds as in hold'em.

How would this change the game? I mean, beyond the obvious like pocket aces being not-quite-sure they're not losing to rolled up trips.

I'm particularly interested in how domination theory would be affected. For example, it seems clear that AJ7's preflop disadvantage against AK9 would be less than AJ vs. AK. In this regard it would play more like 7-stud, it seems to me. But there are still four community cards, so the level of "individuality" wouldn't be on a par with stud.

Thoughts?

[Kojak1984]

Can I assume we're using two hole cards, as per Omaha? In which case isn't this pretty much going to play like Crazy Pineapple but with no river?

[Gonso]

You could deal the turn and river at the same time.

[Kojak1984]

Just re-read the post; rolled-up trips implies we can use all three hole cards to the end.

So basically this is a crazy form of Crazy Pineapple. Or a Pyschotic Pineapple. I don't think this would work particularly well, in the same way that Omaha only lets you use two cards.

One thing I would envisage straight away is the number of flush/straight possiblities on any given flop being far greater. Also there's potential for people to have equally ranked flushes in different suits.

I'm supposed to be studying for an exam tomorrow so I can't really give it too much thought, but it's interesting to think about.

Pyscho Pineapple Hilo 8 coming to a table near you... []

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this would work particularly well, in the same way that Omaha only lets you use two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in Omaha you're making a five-card hand from nine cards, so it seems fitting that there should be some additional constraints to keep the hand values from getting totally out of hand. (You think Omaha has a lot of full houses now....) Likewise, in the Pineapple games you have eight cards available, so you're hobbled by the requirement to discard one of them early.

In this game, you're making a five-card hand from seven cards, same as HE or 7S, so the hand values shouldn't run horribly different from those games.

One thing that comes to mind is, implied odds would be rather different than HE because of the extra concealed card. For example, it's true that a flop like:

9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

makes all kinds of straights and flushes possible, but only to players who start suited or connected -- which is harder than being suited or connected in HE, i.e. more like 7S.

So if you limp with three spades and hit that flop, you're less likely to get respect for your made hand, I think. OTOH, if naive players were to assume that a flop like that hit someone, you could certainly run more bluffs.

It would certainly be maddening to know that ANY flop could make a four-flush for someone, though. You'd probably have to give fewer free cards because of the concealed draws. In stud you can make a hand with three hole cards and two upcards, of course, but you don't get your last upcard until the river. It's unlikely someone with a 7-stud board suited

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

is secretly chasing a diamond flush. If they could start with three hidden diamonds, though, then flop a fourth, you'd never know that the diamond on the river makes their hand. (In stud, if they start with three diamonds, the door card gives you a hint.) At least, you'd have to worry about this any time the board had two suited cards with one of them on the flop.

[Gonso]

What about a Holdem variant where 3 hole cards are dealt, but with one face up (as in 7stud). Each player would have to discard one like Pineapple. I imagine there's a few scenarios where retaining the face up card would be more EV in terms of hand possibilities, but is the one discarded for deception purposes.

Poker's good stuff.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
Just re-read the post; rolled-up trips implies we can use all three hole cards to the end.

So basically this is a crazy form of Crazy Pineapple. Or a Pyschotic Pineapple. I don't think this would work particularly well, in the same way that Omaha only lets you use two cards.

One thing I would envisage straight away is the number of flush/straight possiblities on any given flop being far greater. Also there's potential for people to have equally ranked flushes in different suits.

I'm supposed to be studying for an exam tomorrow so I can't really give it too much thought, but it's interesting to think about.

Pyscho Pineapple Hilo 8 coming to a table near you... []

[/ QUOTE ]

To take the Crazy Pineapple analogy to the extreme, a friend showed me a variant called "Thermonuclear Pineapple" which is played like CP except that each player is dealt 5 cards and must discard 1 before the flop, turn, and river. Talk about an action game!

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
The other night in that last lucid moment before falling asleep, I got to wondering what hold'em would look like if players had three hole cards and four community cards. For the sake of argument, let's say players get all three hole cards before the first betting round, the flop is two cards, and everything else proceeds as in hold'em.

How would this change the game? I mean, beyond the obvious like pocket aces being not-quite-sure they're not losing to rolled up trips.

I'm particularly interested in how domination theory would be affected. For example, it seems clear that AJ7's preflop disadvantage against AK9 would be less than AJ vs. AK. In this regard it would play more like 7-stud, it seems to me. But there are still four community cards, so the level of "individuality" wouldn't be on a par with stud.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots more bluffing potential, and nuts is at least quads.

[Abbaddabba]

Im not sure that AAx 3 suited is necessarily better than 910Js (or anything like that).

Rolled up trips are clearly the best though (about as rare as 3 to a straight flush)

[glass_onion]

At homegames when I get 15 or so people together who all fancy themselves internet pro's, we play this game at the end of the night, so the PLO players or NLHE players don't start bitching.

Basically, standard holdem but flop is 2 card, and turn is 2 cards. River, of course, 1.

Much less nutpeddling and much looser calls in this game. Basically everyone wants to see the turn, now, which is where the betting gets very aggressive. That turn can pretty dramatically change your fortunes, as you might imaging with pairs, or even AK overcards.

The basic think is that everyone doesn't have thier equity memorized on the flop.