Input is appreciated 1/2 Stud

[JerBear77]

Im threw my first reading from 7CSFAP, so im putting my thoughts on there as well.


7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

<font color="blue">Too many players to raise here...correct? </font>


4th Street - (3.15 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
<font color="blue">The Ks don't scare me or anything else for that matter becasue the Ks are not live, but my cards are all live so i figured to sandbag my hand till next street... </font>

5th Street - (3.58 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

<font color="blue"> The rest i think is standard. </font>

6th Street - (9.58 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (11.58 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (13.58 BB - $27.15)

[trickyAAA]

First of all, to not raise on third street is absolutely incorrect. You want to raise here to hopefully limit the field, but also for value because you have, in all likelyhood, the best starting hand. Remember, Sklansky says that when playing high pairs, they do much better against a smaller field.

On fourth street you have a dilema. This is largely because you did not raise on third street. If the K had called a raise you would have more information about his hand than you do now. Typically against a paired door, I would lose the aces, but in this case, with one king dead, and considering the fact that he did not raise on third, it is probably safe to play. That said, I would raise on fourth street here to limit the field, and in particular to see if the paired door king comes along. The raise here when the bet is still cheap may save you bets later.

Once the A comes on sixth, you are home free so you want to maximize the amount of bets you get from your opponents. Since it is highly likely that seat five mad his flush on sixth, I owuld go for a check raise at this point. You could have used that fact that u did not raise your aces on third to your advantage here since he may have some doubt as to whether you are full. Since he can see your two pair, but he did not put you on aces from the beginning, he may bet for perceived value as well as to make you pay for your last card, which may (in his view) fill you up.

On the river there is nothing to do but bet IMO. I would much rather go for the check raise on sixth and bet the river than take the chance of letting him show down his hand for free.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, to not raise on third street is absolutely incorrect. You want to raise here to hopefully limit the field, but also for value because you have, in all likelyhood, the best starting hand. Remember, Sklansky says that when playing high pairs, they do much better against a smaller field.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he can't limit the field because everyone has already limped. Everyone. No one ever limp-folds in a multi-way pot. No one.

That being said, aces are strong enough that you can raise for value because no one can hit an overcard kicker to make a better two pair. Plus, your queen is live. If you had jacks, calling is probably more appropriate unless you had a well-cordinated side card like a ten suited to one of your jacks.

I also think you call on sixth because your opponent may not bet a flush and may fold to a check-raise if he does bet.

[Siegmund]

I am raising third for value. AAQ is the best hand at the table so I am happy to see everyone put in one more chip. Fourth is depressing - not so much because of king pairing, but because of the ace and queen coming out. Your cards are not more live than KK's cards are.

I am not checkraising sixth - with two pair showing I am not likely to get much action. Even a completed flush might not be eager to pump it up. Definitely bet the end. Maybe he'll fold - you are even. Maybe he'll call - you are a bet ahead. And maybe he made a smaller full house and you'll get to 3-bet him instead of checkraising him.

[trickyAAA]

Notice I said to hopefully limit the field, but also for value. The fact is that while most of the hands may call, the bring in may fold to the raise on third. That would be someone. Someone. This would limit the field somewhat. Whehter they call or not is irrelevant because if they fold you limit the field and if they call, they are incorrect according to the fundamental theorom. As far as sixth goes, the check raise does not have to work every time for it to be correct, and I think it is a strong play. If the player did not think his flush was good, he probably wouldnt be drawing to it. If the OP had raised on third, the check raise would not be possible. So when you look at it in that light, I would think you have to agree that a check raise is a vialbe option at this point.

[trickyAAA]

You also have to consider the fact that the player drawing to his flush did so by calling with two paired door cards. He is clearly a very weak player, and as such it strengthens the argument for the sixth street check raise.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
Notice I said to hopefully limit the field, but also for value. The fact is that while most of the hands may call, the bring in may fold to the raise on third. That would be someone. Someone. This would limit the field somewhat. Whehter they call or not is irrelevant because if they fold you limit the field and if they call, they are incorrect according to the fundamental theorom. As far as sixth goes, the check raise does not have to work every time for it to be correct, and I think it is a strong play. If the player did not think his flush was good, he probably wouldnt be drawing to it. If the OP had raised on third, the check raise would not be possible. So when you look at it in that light, I would think you have to agree that a check raise is a vialbe option at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong in that a lot of hands would be correct to call the raise according to the fundamental theorem because it is a multi-way pot. If not for the paired king, it might even be correct for a draw that bricks on fourth to take a card off and see fifth if you raise with obvious aces.

As for check-raising sixth. Let's say that betting will always gain a bet on sixth and on the river. A check-raise attempt will win one bet if it fails (if opponent bet-folds, or checks behind) and three bets if it wins. I'm not entirely sure that it will succeed more than half the time. He has every reason to think his flush draw is good, but that changes when a player catches two open pair after raising an open pair of kings on fifth. Checking while showing aces up is suspicious looking and a lot of players with a flush, even bad ones, will check behind because they don't want to be check-raised. They may not be good enough to fold, but most loose-pasive calling stations at least won't spew money by betting on sixth if checked to. If hero doesn't catch the ace on sixth, but actually has (A4) in the hole and full house, then a check-raise is a good idea.

[trickyAAA]

Your points are well taken with regard to the correctness of the calls on third street.

I guess you totally disagree with my check raise play on sixth, but I have played in this 1/2 game a lot and I believe it is a profitable play. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

A bet on sixth is certainly ok, I was only presenting another alternative, and giving the OP some insight to think about. For a beginning player, playing the hand straight up is probably the best advice.

[Andy B]

I make it a full bet on third street. It is true that you probably won't lose too many players by doing so, but I think you give up too much value by just limping. I believe that at some juncture in 7CS4AP, the authors say that if people are playing absolutely anything, you give up too much value by not raising with, say, a pair of Jacks. I will essentially always raise with live Aces, and almost always with live Kings.

I call on fourth. The pair of Kings is less scary than usual because he didn't raise third and it looks like folks are playing every hand. If this guy was an exceptionally weak-tight player, I might be a little more concerned, but I'd still press on. Raising probably doesn't fold anyone who isn't folding anyway.

Yeah, raise fifth. And just bet sixth. I don't like the suggested check-raise. First, I don't think it will work all that often. Secondly, people may fold to the check-raise when they would have called if you just bet sixth and seventh. Third, betting out allows you to get in three bets when someone else likes his hand.

[SCSTWG]

even though you are in last position and everyone has called, I am going to raise with the best hand. It may not limit the field (maybe the bring-in and one other player), but it will get some dead money in the pot for sure. The quandry is that it will now be correct for the drawing hands to stick around - the reality is that most of these players shouldn't be in the pot to begin with, but they will still call a raise. Once the K pairs his doorcard you are in a tough spot because without raising on 3rd, you have no read on his hand (other than 1 King being dead). I would probably fold at this point because you now have to worry about trip K's and the obvious flush draw in seat 5. Fortunantely for you, you called and hit 3 runners to make a full house - you can hardly count on that happening very often. Some might disagree with my fold here and they may be right, but in these low limit stud games once I know I am behind I do not chase very often.