I am a stud fish; tell me how I should've played this

[Ghazban]

I am primarily a NLHE shorthanded player but I've been trying to broaden my horizons. The hand below is from the stud section in a HORSE game. Stud hi is by far my worst game; I do fairly well in Razz and can hold my own in Stud hi/lo but I frequently find myself having difficulty reading hands and determining my best play in hi-only.

I don't have much in the way of reads on my opponent; he hasn't shown anything down in any game but seems fairly loose on the early streets of all games.

7 Card Stud High ($8/$16), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.75 SB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___double-bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.88 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (7.88 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.88 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (11.88 BB - $190)

[TheSalche]

When you get raised on 5th, I think you can call hoping to hit something that beats aces up, but I'd fold 6th UI.

I'd guess he has aces up considering he continued to bet, rather than taking the free card on 6th.

Even if you call 6th, you HAVE to fold the river unimproved. This is a total chip spew unless you're calling for information and you plan on playing with this guy ... a lot.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
When you get raised on 5th, I think you can call hoping to hit something that beats aces up, but I'd fold 6th UI.

I'd guess he has aces up considering he continued to bet, rather than taking the free card on 6th.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought was also aces up but it seemed like he'd have to be starting with pretty crappy cards to have gotten to 5th this way-- am I wrong? Does [9A]9 just limp in on 3rd? Does [7A]9 even come in at all? It can't even be [7A]9 diamonds based on the 4th street Ad.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you call 6th, you HAVE to fold the river unimproved. This is a total chip spew unless you're calling for information and you plan on playing with this guy ... a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree; I basically called 6th hoping to hit something (though beating aces up at that point will not be easy) and then called 7th to see what he had (a terrible reason I know).

[TheSalche]

with two jacks and a king behind him, he wouldnt want to raise with 9A9 since a pair of jacks or kings would surely 2-bet his completion. this is pretty much exactly how i would play 9A9

[PokrLikeItsProse]

What hands can I see playing this way (based on playing at stakes not quite this high)?

(A9)9
(99)9
(KK)9
(AA)9

For certain players, I am also willing to believe

(T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
(K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
or similar hands.

When a player with two suited cards showing on fourth calls a double-bet by a player who paired his door card after raising on third, I find that the range of hands is almost always {flush draw, set, overpair, two pair}, and many players don't raise fifth there with an over pair or two small pair. Some will check and call down with rolled up nines unimproved unless they catch a king.

There exist some players who like to get fancy and try to bluff players who pair their doorcard. If he is taking down pots with hyper-aggressivity, he may be one such player. Did this player seemed to bet or raise a lot of scare cards and jam with possible draws in other games?

I wonder what happens if you three-bet fifth. I'm definitely not advocating that play, but it's worth considering what you think your opponent would do in that spot in trying to get a read here and also contemplating what you would do differently if you had started with split kings and what your opponent might notice about you.

[Andy B]

Third is a limp. High-bags really aren't that great. In hold'em, AK is a strong hand because you get three cards all at once on the flop to try to make a pair, and top pair is frequently enough to win. Here, you have to pay for your cards one at a time to try to pair up, and one pair usually isn't going to do it at the showdown. Also, a few of your straight cards are gone.

On fourth street, naturally you bet double and hope to take it down. When the other guy calls, it should mean that he has a set. Maybe he calls with Aces-up or a flush draw. In any case, his call should give you pause if he isn't an idiot. Your hand is about as weak as it can be considering the action thus far, and he apparently isn't scared of you.

When the other guy raises fifth, it sure looks like you're in trouble. For all he knows, you have trip Kings, and yet he raises. Maybe he's got a huge draw or something, but even there it's not like you're killing him. Folding can't be far wrong.

Calling seventh is just throwing good money after bad.

[cgrohman]

Yep. Limp 3rd and fold to his raise on 5th. You are showing open Kings. He raises you. Unless he is just nuts, he has you crushed.

[Ghazban]

Re: the completion on 3rd, I wanted to get the bring-in out and go HU with the 9-- is that bad? Basically, I figured I would take it on 4th if he didn't catch anything good and/or I caught something intimidating.

As I said, yes calling 7th was not a good play and was only done to see what he had and (hopefully) learn something from it. I strongly considered folding to the raise on 5th but my gut instinct told me I was good (good meaning either ahead or not in terrible shape) so I didn't. With that read, calling sixth to try and make 2 pair+ for 7th seems correct.

Results:

His hole cards at the end were shown to be KK2. Full Tilt shuffles hole cards at showdown so you can't be sure what your opponent started with but it seems clear to me he had [KK]9 on 3rd and I was actually ahead until the end. Any comments on my opponent's play? If he doesn't make 2 pair on the end, is it correct for him to bet if checked to? My n000bish response to that would be that a river bet with just a pair of kings there is spew but maybe it's a sexy place to bluff.

[cgrohman]

Hmm. Villian seemed to make a very good play. He had the other 2 Kings down- knowing that you did not have trips and then tried to get you to fold either 2 pair or naked Kings. I still still fold fifth. He is showing extreme strength against an open pair.

[dsaxton]

Since you don't have a chance to win the antes with a raise, limping 3rd is best. When making the transition from holdem to stud, it's important to learn that starting hands containing unpaired high cards are very marginal.

And 5th is a fold for the reasons mentioned. When a player raises you after you've paired your doorcard, he is either a maniac or he has a monster. You only have one pair with a gutshot, so it's best to minimize your losses and fold.