4/180 PS Did I play this correctly?

Maxxum · #1 12-12-2006, 10:42 PM

Here's the hand. Just input on how anybody else would do anything differently. I busted out. Just want some advice and critique.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1530
UTG+1: t1500
MP1: t1830
MP2: t1470
MP3: t1510
Hero: t1400
Button: t1680
SB: t1480
BB: t1100

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls t20 (pot was t30), 2 folds, Hero calls t20 (pot was t50), Button calls t20 (pot was t70), SB calls t10 (pot was t90), BB checks.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t100, 5 players)
SB checks, BB bets t80, MP1 calls t80 (pot was t180), Hero raises to t220, 2 folds, BB calls t140 (pot was t480), MP1 folds.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t620, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t280, BB raises all-in t860, Hero calls t580 (pot was t1760).

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t2340, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t2340)

Results:
Final pot: t2340
Hero showed Qd Kc
BB showed 6s 7s

OK... let me know.

Unknown Soldier · #2 12-12-2006, 10:43 PM

welcome to 2+2 you want the tournament forum

Antinome · #3 12-12-2006, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
welcome to 2+2 you want the tournament forum

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think BBV is better for this one.

Markusgc · #4 12-13-2006, 12:29 AM

Flop, fine. I go closer to 200, but whatever.

Turn, I go closer to the pot. You still don't have any reason not to think he's got a better hand than yours. A set is possible, but isn't it always? I'd bet about 575. If he wants to shove over that with a weak flush draw,
you have to call, pot-odds-wise. Maybe he doesn't push if you bet though?

In my experience, you're gonna find some retards that are willing to go broke chasing non-nut (or even close) flushes early in the game in the $4/180's.

In the future, you probably shouldn't post the results, just leave it at your toughest decision to get suggestions from others in the forum.

Yours could go something like this:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t620, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck, keep reading, keep posting.

eBo · #5 12-13-2006, 12:33 AM

There are many ways of playing this. Since it is a 4/180 and you are likely to get called with crap, you should:
1. Raise PF
2. Raise more flop.
3. Push turn.

Maxxum · #6 12-13-2006, 01:52 AM

Thank you Mark and eBo. After reviewing the hand myself I had the same thoughts. Just wanted to get outsider input.

As for the results being posted... I am new to reading and posting on the forums... no results next time. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks again

Geoff Lightning · #7 12-13-2006, 06:16 AM

Okay, maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but I believe the main issue here is pot size control. This pot is HUGE after the raise on the flop. You need a big hand to play a big pot. You also can't assume that just because "lots of players play badly in the beginning of tourneys" that this is that case. Unless you have a solid read on the player, you need to not get involved early in a big pot with a lot of BBs still in your stack. I think the raise on the flop is "barely acceptable," but after that I would check the turn and keep the pot small. If he made further bets, I'd probably let the hand go.

Be careful not to look at the result of the hand and assume that someone in that scenario will always have that hand. For example, I make a move very similar to his some of the times I hit a big hand. Regardless, if I'm ahead, I'm ahead, but I'm not putting that amount of chips in with top pair second kicker.

One last example: if a guy pushes all in on the first hand and I fold A9 and he shows A8, it doesn't mean it was a bad play.

AceLuby · #8 12-13-2006, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but I believe the main issue here is pot size control. This pot is HUGE after the raise on the flop. You need a big hand to play a big pot. You also can't assume that just because "lots of players play badly in the beginning of tourneys" that this is that case. Unless you have a solid read on the player, you need to not get involved early in a big pot with a lot of BBs still in your stack. I think the raise on the flop is "barely acceptable," but after that I would check the turn and keep the pot small. If he made further bets, I'd probably let the hand go.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be better off not listening to this. If you aren't trying to pump the pot w/ TP2K when no one showed strength PF then you are playing the wrong game. Reraising the pot is standard and mandatory, and I may even raise even more. Not open pushing the turn was a mistake. Waiting for premium cards with premium flops in a tournament will get you about a 0% ROI, while it has more variance, getting aggressive and playing to win the whole tournament, whether it's the beginning or late in the tournament, will win you more $ in the end.

Geoff, read the anthology and other posters and you'll soon realize why your suggestion is bad.

Fiksdal · #9 12-13-2006, 01:33 PM

Preflop, a limp is not horrible, but I raise to t100.

As played on the flop I play it like you did.

t500 on turn, as played call when he pushes.

Welcome to the MTT forum.

This was a bad beat, and I suspect you would not have posted it if the river came as a blank. One of the things I learned after beeing in this forum for a cople of weeks was to post hands that are interesting, not the ones I lost.

And don't post what came on the river, or what the villain flipped up, at least not until after the discussion is finished.

Geoff Lightning · #10 12-13-2006, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but I believe the main issue here is pot size control. This pot is HUGE after the raise on the flop. You need a big hand to play a big pot. You also can't assume that just because "lots of players play badly in the beginning of tourneys" that this is that case. Unless you have a solid read on the player, you need to not get involved early in a big pot with a lot of BBs still in your stack. I think the raise on the flop is "barely acceptable," but after that I would check the turn and keep the pot small. If he made further bets, I'd probably let the hand go.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be better off not listening to this. If you aren't trying to pump the pot w/ TP2K when no one showed strength PF then you are playing the wrong game. Reraising the pot is standard and mandatory, and I may even raise even more. Not open pushing the turn was a mistake. Waiting for premium cards with premium flops in a tournament will get you about a 0% ROI, while it has more variance, getting aggressive and playing to win the whole tournament, whether it's the beginning or late in the tournament, will win you more $ in the end.

Geoff, read the anthology and other posters and you'll soon realize why your suggestion is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fairly insulting and I feel compelled to defend myself and my opinion a little bit.

0% ROI? This is the beginning of a tournament, first level at Stars, if I'm not mistaken. I play that round with M of ~ 50 like I would play a cash game. If you play a positive cash game, you come out with more chips than you went in with. If you mean 0% ROI if this is later on in the tournament, then it's understandable, but I hope you aren't implying that's what I have.

Read the anthology? Done that several times. I looked again and a thread on controlling the size of the pot jumped off the page. I'm sure what you're referring to is the threads about taking small edges early. What makes you so sure that this is a small edge and that you're not behind? You know nothing about the opponent except that he is in a $4 tourney. If you're a decent player playing against him in a $4 tourney, how do you know what he will and will not be commiting chips to the pot with? No one showed strength PF, okay, but I wouldn't have been worried about AK either. I'm talking about two pairs with crappy cards, or even a baby set. You think this is a small edge and I don't, that is our main difference in opinion, but I don't think you need to go insulting me about my advice when it's sound advice that several name pros would advocate (that's where I learned it from).