Since nobody is posting hands: Turn/River play with a LAG.

[surfdoc]

Here is a the type of thing that comes up often. Villian is floating a lot pre and post and in general playing pretty aggro. He is putting me to the test frequently. He is something like 38/24/2 over 200 hands. Preflop and flop are standard. The turn is where it gets tough.


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Okay I really doubt he has an ace here as he 3 bets most pre and raises this flop the rest of the time. Pretty dry flop but he is not smart enough to let me keep the lead if he has an ace. He 3 bets most pairs pre as well so there is a decent chance he has air.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.75BB, 2 players)
hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, hero calls.

Getting raised here and having to muck the best hand or at least a 6 outer would be rough so I decided to check. I am now seriously considering taking K high to showdown. Is that very wrong here? Anyone just keep firing here?

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.75BB, 2 players)
hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>

Okay, there is my money card. Time for some punishment and time to plant a reminder of what can happen when he tries to take every pot from me.


Yeah? Are we okay here?

[wackjob]

I like it. I think your thought process is solid &amp; I think he will pay you off with almost all pairs and will only fold missed draws/bluffs.

[milesdyson]

i dont see how he can call the river with a worse hand. and he's obviously never folding an ace. maybe if he has JT or QJ you get some value here.

otherwise i think the river c/r is pretty pointless.

i can live with the turn play and decision to get to showdown with this hand based on how you feel he's playing. i most often bet or check fold the turn.

[wackjob]

I disagree, I think villain will make a lot of bad calls here with middle PP or 9's, 6's, a worse J, and also hands that beat hero.

[sonartec]

but wackjob we discounted those pp you speak of before we got to the river, so you cant throw them back in now.
as for a pair, i wouldnt be suprised if he check raises all pairs on this board, most o the time given the discription.

I think he will pay off with a worse J, but does he really bet the turn when checked to with J hi? and his flop call with J hi seems kind of wierd.

I think he has Air or an ace alot, i think i like calling the river,

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont see how he can call the river with a worse hand. and he's obviously never folding an ace. maybe if he has JT or QJ you get some value here.

otherwise i think the river c/r is pretty pointless.

i can live with the turn play and decision to get to showdown with this hand based on how you feel he's playing. i most often bet or check fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually bet/fold or check/fold this turn as well. There just has to come a time where hand reading merges with stat reading and a decision made that somebody is fuucking with you.

While I agree with you and others that it will be hard for him to call a river checkraise, I think that my line looks profoundly suspicious and I get looked up by all kinds of nonsense. Maybe he has a 9 and decided to play a little cautious on the flop for once. I think his most likely hands are suited/unsuited small broadways that you and I routinely muck preflop to a tight players raise but he just cannot let go of. How else can he get his vpip up so high? We will see worse Js here plenty like you mentioned.

Anyway, I also usually just call this river too but I thought this was a special circumstance. A spot in which there is still some value in NOT showing my hand: value in the metagame fact (it seems I am always posting about this lately wtf?) that he is now guessing and feeling owned, wondering if I just put a move on him, and knowing that some of my checks are scary.

[psyduck]

I love your play. That's a pretty dry flop though, so I might fold river if you don't hit your K or J or it puts another ugly card (non-board pairing one) up there.

[DeathDonkey]

You play good but gotta lay down to the 3 bet and that makes you look odd in villain's eyes maybe not in a way you want to look to him. You'll also look odd if you just call here and of course look very odd if you called unimproved. I'd feel a bit bad about missing a bet if he has a pair here and you just call but I figure it will be good for my metagame (and especially yours since you are a bit more snug than me) to play it passively here.

-DeathDonkey

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
You play good but gotta lay down to the 3 bet and that makes you look odd in villain's eyes maybe not in a way you want to look to him. You'll also look odd if you just call here and of course look very odd if you called unimproved. I'd feel a bit bad about missing a bet if he has a pair here and you just call but I figure it will be good for my metagame (and especially yours since you are a bit more snug than me) to play it passively here.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Why will it be good for me to play it passively? That is essentially how I many marginal hands against this type, letting them spew off bets when they have trash and saving bets when they have real hands.

This hand reminded me a lot of your KJ hand I saw you play in the 2/4 game with Rock. That was a super sick river raise.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You play good but gotta lay down to the 3 bet and that makes you look odd in villain's eyes maybe not in a way you want to look to him. You'll also look odd if you just call here and of course look very odd if you called unimproved. I'd feel a bit bad about missing a bet if he has a pair here and you just call but I figure it will be good for my metagame (and especially yours since you are a bit more snug than me) to play it passively here.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Why will it be good for me to play it passively? That is essentially how I many marginal hands against this type, letting them spew off bets when they have trash and saving bets when they have real hands.

This hand reminded me a lot of your KJ hand I saw you play in the 2/4 game with Rock. That was a super sick river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah the fact that you often go limp here is the reason I like it. Encourages him that you play all hands the same here and may give him a bit of fear the next time you check to him (though these guys never learn). He's going to write you off as another passive fool who never lays down a hand and that's good for two reasons: 1) he thinks you suck so he'll continue to float you, goof with you, and basically not fold correctly against you, and 2) he just might play a bit more straightforwardly postflop against you. I know I'm doing something right when I play against these type of guys and I raise with like KQ and they call and the flop is ace high and I bet and they call and then we check it down and I win. I've trained them.

Also that river raise in the 2/4 was very specific to our history. I've given him plenty of bets on river bluff raises and will get paid there for a longgggg time to come [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey