Another: U Make The Call - Part Deux

[Pscam10]

I didn't want to hijack KC50's previous post, but the discussion got me thinking about an interesting ruling that happened to me a few month's back.

I don't remember all the specifics, but after a few raises and re-raises I get it all in post flop (all unders) against one villain. I was the last aggressor. After going in to the tank for like 3 minutes, Villain turns over AA and tosses them toward the muck; I clearly heard him say "call". The dealer, who was obviously very inexperienced and didn't speak English well drags villains aces in to the muck - they were clearly not retrievable. The villain and his neighbors instantly start screaming that he called my all-in. The dealer proceeds to pick all the cards up and fish through them for villains cards. Now I go crazy and call for the floor. I still have not tabled my hand.

The floor rules that the villains hand is still live - which I didn't necessarily agree with but let it go because I thought it was the fair thing to do. The floor then tells the dealer to reshuffle all the cards and deal the turn and river because the remaining cards were placed on top of the muck. Villain objects to no avail. Turn is a blank and I spike my king on the river to make a set and win the pot.

Villain proceeds to ask me to chop the pot. I pretty much laughed and began stacking my chips. The guy went nuts and stormed off.

Do you think the floor made the right ruling(s)? I honestly believed that the villains cards were dead as soon as the dealer washed his cards with the muck rendering them unretrievable. Would I have been awarded the whole pot if this was the ruling?

[sirpupnyc]

If he said call, he called. If he tabled his hand, his cards were seen by many and identifiable, so the magical muck has no power over them.

[Pscam10]

[ QUOTE ]
If he said call, he called. If he tabled his hand, his cards were seen by many and identifiable, so the magical muck has no power over them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, that is why I didn't strenuously object to his hand being live, but don't you think it's a little much for the dealer to pick up all the cards and fish through them for 2 aces? Doesn't the player have some responsibility for protecting his hand?

[KC50]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he said call, he called. If he tabled his hand, his cards were seen by many and identifiable, so the magical muck has no power over them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, that is why I didn't strenuously object to his hand being live, but don't you think it's a little much for the dealer to pick up all the cards and fish through them for 2 aces? Doesn't the player have some responsibility for protecting his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like when he declared "call then turned his cards face up" he was just doing what good 'ol television has trained the no limit society to do. Therefore, (IMHO) his hand should be considered protected when he declared "call and he placed them face up on the table" so everyone could see them.

You said you knew he called and everyone else knew he called (except for the dealer) and saw his hand.

I believe the floors ruling was fair.

KC

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain turns over AA and tosses them toward the muck; I clearly heard him say "call". The dealer, who was obviously very inexperienced and didn't speak English well drags villains aces in to the muck - they were clearly not retrievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can identify them, one was an ace and the other one was an ace. Assuming a couple people saw the suits now we can just go through the muck until we find them.

[Pscam10]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain turns over AA and tosses them toward the muck; I clearly heard him say "call". The dealer, who was obviously very inexperienced and didn't speak English well drags villains aces in to the muck - they were clearly not retrievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can identify them, one was an ace and the other one was an ace. Assuming a couple people saw the suits now we can just go through the muck until we find them.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK

[donking]

Sounds like the floor did the correct thing.

[ZPinhead]

Sounds to me like:

1) The floor made the correct ruling
2) The dealer should be kicked in the nuts several times
3) The villain should get a kidney punch for being such a tool about having his AA cracked ("so, you wanna chop???")

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain turns over AA and tosses them toward the muck; I clearly heard him say "call".

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You can identify them, one was an ace and the other one was an ace. Assuming a couple people saw the suits now we can just go through the muck until we find them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toward the muck sounds debatable and it easily could've been a mistake by the dealer. But if that weren't the case, there has to be a better way to hold a player accountable for his actions and have the muck be what it stands for.

I'm sure you're correct Randy but hypothetically, if a guy against me said call and then clearly tossed his cards into the muck, I see no reason for his hand to be live. If you said call, newbie or not, you should know better and have your hand folded if you put your cards into the muck.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain turns over AA and tosses them toward the muck; I clearly heard him say "call".

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You can identify them, one was an ace and the other one was an ace. Assuming a couple people saw the suits now we can just go through the muck until we find them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toward the muck sounds debatable and it easily could've been a mistake by the dealer. But if that weren't the case, there has to be a better way to hold a player accountable for his actions and have the muck be what it stands for.

I'm sure you're correct Randy but hypothetically, if a guy against me said call and then clearly tossed his cards into the muck, I see no reason for his hand to be live. If you said call, newbie or not, you should know better and have your hand folded if you put your cards into the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of people that show their hand by throwing it out in the center for everyone to see. I recentlly drove out to LA to meet with someone I work with online. We went to play some poker and I was horrified to see that at the showdown he declares his hand while thorwing it face uup into the center (he played white chip when I wasn't with him, he moved down to yellow when I was with him, so he isn't a beginner playing tiny limits). I explained the problems of doing that so I suppsoe he protects his hand better now.