He See's Someones Cards

David Sklansky · #1 11-12-2006, 05:38 PM

Here is a nice question, the answer to which I haven't thought about and will not necessarily think about anytime soon. But it is a good exercise in poker thinking, so I pose it to generate some discussion.

You are an expert player and are playing in a tough game with other good players. You realize that one of the players can see a third player's cards. No one else realizes this. Does that advantage more than make up for your disadvantage? Might it depend on, the game, the number of total players, which seats they are in (assume they are sitting next to each other), or whether the player whose cards can be seen is a live one or not (assume the player who sees the cards is an expert who will make use of his information but won't make it obvious)?

Unknown Soldier · #2 11-12-2006, 05:45 PM

I think the advantage makes up for your disadvantage. The reaosn being that you know what they're doing, and they don't know that you know. It's a bit like multiple-level thinking, and you're one level ahead of your opponents.

As for the number of players, I haven't thought about that and nothing instinctively comes to mind. I guess the more players the better? Because you know more then they know so have an edge over more people, not sure about that one!

Having them seated to your imediate right will be the best place. But I think you have an advantage reagrdless.

disjunction · #3 11-13-2006, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the advantage makes up for your disadvantage. The reaosn being that you know what they're doing, and they don't know that you know. It's a bit like multiple-level thinking, and you're one level ahead of your opponents.

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I'll give you a trivial situation where you're still screwed. You're playing Limit Hold'em, perhaps 5-handed, and the guy 3 to your right can see the hole cards of the guy 2 to your right (in other words, directly to his left). Now whenever you are BB, the cutoff (CO) in essence becomes the button, and his stealing range goes way up. Your only "advantage" is that you know the CO is on a button steal range. You are hosed.

I haven't thought about it, but I doubt you can make up the equity when he's SB, or UTG, etc.

Eponymous · #4 11-13-2006, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the advantage makes up for your disadvantage. The reaosn being that you know what they're doing, and they don't know that you know. It's a bit like multiple-level thinking, and you're one level ahead of your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know what they're doing, but you don't know why they're doing it because you don't know either of their cards. For example, the player whose cards are seen raises on the button preflop. The cheater is in the SB and reraises. You are in the BB with AJ. What do you do? One possibility is the button was making a steal attempt and the SB knew this and knew his otherwise marginal hand had him dominated. Your AJ could easily be the best hand. But another possibility is that the button had a strong hand and the SB had a monster. Your AJ could be dominated by one or even both. So even though you know what the SB is doing, since you don't know why, I don't see it as being a big enough advantage to make up the disadvantage.

Maybe this example is too contrived, but I think it will usually be the case that you see what the cheater is doing, but you don't know whether it's in reaction to the other player being strong or weak, bluffing or value betting, or whatever the scenario might be.

Unknown Soldier · #5 11-13-2006, 06:58 AM

I misread the question; I thought the players are colluding.

Well that changes everything, I'll need to think about it. I imagine it will depend on the number of players involved. The more players, the better your advantage I'd say. Becuase you know more then they do, and thus have an advantage over them. I think there will be a point where the number of players in the game will make up for the cheaters advantage over you.

As for the position the cheater has to be on your right, because you only have that information when he's acting before you.

....more to come!

dreilly · #6 11-29-2006, 01:20 PM

well i thought about this for a while and i came to the conclusion it would be a disadvantage for you even though you can deduct what hand they both have compared to each other and that is an advantage to you but the expert who has seen two sets of cards has the bigger edge and therefore you are at more of a disadvantage to this player if you end up heads up with him in this pot, if he folds you are at a huge advantage because you can probably count on the fact that they both have matching cards. is this over the full game or just one hand?

Curse · #7 11-13-2006, 05:31 PM

Good point, so it accually turns back into poker, and getting reads on one or both of them.

Eponymous · #8 11-13-2006, 07:44 PM

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Good point, so it accually turns back into poker, and getting reads on one or both of them.

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Yeah, so maybe there is some advantage in that if you have a good read on one of them, you may now have a read on the other as well. I didn't think of that. I still doubt it would be a great advantage, though.

George Rice · #9 11-12-2006, 07:38 PM

You haven't thought about the answer?

Didn't you ask this, or a similar question, several years ago?

CityFan · #10 11-13-2006, 08:18 AM

Say it was a stud game. I can see the cheater's board, he has paired his door card. The player who's cards he can see makes a raise with a suited board, and the cheater folds...

I can make inferences about the third player's cards based on the cheater's actions. In this case, I think he has a made flush.