Dealer pushes time (long, maybe low content)

Aces McGee · #1 10-10-2006, 06:41 PM

Living in the DC area throughout my poker career, I don't get much time in B&M casinos, and only a half dozen or so of those live sessions have been in timed games. With that in mind, please forgive me if this is a rather common or mundane occurrence; it was the first time I'd seen it and I'd never read about it on here.

Taj $10/$20 on Sunday, late morning, or early afternoon. Good game, as the Taj $10/$20 has been every time I've played it. The table is a group of mostly older guys, who are by and large a friendly, pleasant group.

A friendly, experienced, and in my opinion excellent dealer sits down, and everyone obediently posts a $5 redbird for time. As often happens, someone on each side of the table collects the red chips and exchanges them for a green from their own stack; either that, or the dealer changed them from reds to greens from the tray before putting them in the rake circle. In any case, the time for her down is inarguably two $25 green chips.

A few hands into her down, the floorperson still hasn't come over to verify that she has collected time and told her to "drop it"," which at the Taj means put it into the tray.

She pushes a rather large pot to a very pleasant, younger guy (probably in his 30s), who is sitting in Seat 10. As he is just beginning to pick up the chips, the dealer realizes that the time is no longer in the rake circle.

A quick examination of the pot she just pushed reveals no green chips, and a quick discussion verifies that the time was, in fact, green. The dealer then conjectures that she must have pushed the time to seat 9, the hand before.

Seat 9, an older guy, gets a little defensive and says that while he has no problem giving the time back if he in fact does have it, he has no way of knowing if the time is actually in his stack, and he's not going to surrender $50 without knowing for sure. The dealer calls the floor, and he gets whoever it is that checks the cameras to check the cameras, but he isn't sure that the cameras are on this table.

Meanwhile, we continue playing, and while the dealer is quite polite, she does note that if the time isn't recovered, she'll get in trouble. It occurs to me at this point that seat 9 was all in during the pot he won. I'm sitting in the three seat, and say something to the effect of "You know, sir, we should be able to pretty easily tell if you have too much money in your stack, because you were all in." Someone notes that he has green chips in his stack (four, I think), and he (accurately) responds that he had been betting with green chips during that hand.

I ask him how much is in his stack, and he looks down for a second and says about $250. I ask him if he thinks that was the right amount of the pot, and he responds (accurately) that he raised the turn and got two callers, so that's $120 right there. I'm going over the hand in my head at this point, and while I don't remember the number of callers preflop, I do know that the pot went just one bet on the flop, that it was three ways for two bets each on the turn, and that the turn raise left seat 9 with a single red chip, which he bet on the river and was called in both places. I'm also fairly certain that the pot wasn't raised preflop, but I can't be sure.

I give the short version of this thought process, which is that while he did raise the turn, the river was only $5 each three ways, and that in my mind, the pot he won was closer to $200 than $250. I didn't go over the entire reconstruction, and I'm not sure why. He acknowledges that he doesn't know the size of the pot he won, but reiterates his position that he's not at all confident that the time was pushed to him.

I should note that I wasn't being confrontational, and that the gentleman in seat 9 wasn't taking it that way. The mood was still light and there didn't appear to be any animosity towards anyone, even though everyone else at the table was in agreement that the time had probably gone to seat 9. I decide that I've done what I can and will let the house figure this one out.

A few hands later, an extremely pleasant and friendly old man in seat 8 wins a decent pot (the first one he won since this incident), and he pulls out ten red chips and gives them to the dealer. She is grateful, but explains to him that she couldn't possibly take it. Seat 1 and Seat 7 (another regular who is clearly friends with Seat 8) both say they'd be more than willing to contribute to repaying the time if it can't be proved where it went.

The rest of the down plays out without incident. It's never discussed. At one point, seat 9 wins a pot, tips the dealer, she thanks him in her usual sincere way. It's life as normal.

Someone asks the floor if the cameras were able to figure it out, and he says no. The dealer gets pushed, but before she gets up, someone chirps up about paying extra time, saying that if we don't, she'll get written up. Everyone (including seat 9, it should be pointed out) but one player (someone on my side of the table) agrees, and I volunteer to "cover" the guy who won't do it (earning an appreciative wink from seat 7). The dealer is very grateful, the floor gives something of a disapproving look but says nothing, and the new daeler sits down. Seat 2, who sat down just a few hands earlier, doesn't understand why were are putting time up again (for the new down), and says that since he wasn't there when the time was pushed, he shouldn't have to pay. I immediately volunteer to pay his time for this down, agreeing that he shouldn't have to pay. Seat 10 recognizes that I have now paid an extra $10 in addition to the extra $5 I paid, and fires a redbird in my direction. I thank him, tap the table, and that's that.

How do you think everyone involved handled it? I felt a little out of line talking to seat 9, which is probably why I backed off before giving the full reconstruction of the hand. I suspect some of you will say I am a sucker for paying the extra time and that is your prerogative; to me, $5 is worth avoiding animosity at the table, not for metagame reasons, but for life reasons. Should the dealer, or the floor, have done anything differently? The floor, for instance, never asked for a re-creation of any hands, although in his defense, the hand that seat 9 won had happened several minutes before he got to the table.

This may be kind of a useless post, and if it is, I'm sorry. But I typed it all out, so I'm going to post it.

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any replies.

-McGee

DeuceKicker · #2 10-10-2006, 06:59 PM

The way you describe it, it sounds like everyone acted like gentlemen (especially you, but also including the guy who didn't want to pitch in the extra time charge). Since you claim this happened in a poker room I call BS

Quadstriker · #3 10-10-2006, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The way you describe it, it sounds like everyone acted like gentlemen (especially you, but also including the guy who didn't want to pitch in the extra time charge). Since you claim this happened in a poker room I call BS

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. nh sir.

Aces McGee · #4 10-10-2006, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The way you describe it, it sounds like everyone acted like gentlemen (especially you, but also including the guy who didn't want to pitch in the extra time charge). Since you claim this happened in a poker room I call BS

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just a poker room, but the freakin' Taj. I was amazed at how civil and generous everyone was.

-McGee

pokerswami · #5 10-11-2006, 07:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The way you describe it, it sounds like everyone acted like gentlemen (especially you, but also including the guy who didn't want to pitch in the extra time charge). Since you claim this happened in a poker room I call BS

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I've heard New Yorkers say, they would fix your post thusly:
Since you claim this happened in New Jersey, I call BS.

.... but I would never disparage the state myself.

jba · #6 10-11-2006, 09:28 AM

I agree with chesspain. I see no reason why the dealer should not get written up here, and I am not even convinced that you guys prevented it.

govman6767 · #7 10-11-2006, 09:34 AM

You might be the nicest poker player I've ever heard of. I congratulate you on your kindness and attitude.

I could never handle that in such a way I would have been Joe Pesci "baseball bat style" on Seat 9 During or After the game.

Aces McGee · #8 10-11-2006, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with chesspain. I see no reason why the dealer should not get written up here, and I am not even convinced that you guys prevented it.

[/ QUOTE ]

jba, I'm glad you brought that up.

When someone suggested that we repay time, I was going to ask the floorman if that would prevent the dealer from getting written up. I didn't, mainly because I felt I had said enough and I didn't want to appear like I wouldn't pay five bucks to help someone out. But it does seem silly for us to pay time again if the disciplinary action would be the same regardless.

Any floors out there who know what protocol is here?

-McGee

chesspain · #9 10-10-2006, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While the dealer is quite polite, she does note that if the time isn't recovered, she'll get in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad. The fact that the time chips are not in the pot she just pushed means that she lost them. Maybe they're in the prior pot, or maybe the pot before the prior pot, or maybe they fell on the floor, or maybe they fell into her pocket. Who knows?

IMO, if she were really as professional as you say, she would have simply made arrangements to cover the time collection (if necessary) out of her own pocket--which probably comes out to about the last two hours of her tips.

Maybe that will teach her to be more careful with her job.

bernie · #10 10-11-2006, 02:01 AM

I think you handled it fine. Even in regards to addressing seat 9. The key is 'how' you talked to seat 9.

I think your reasons for covering the time were good. Kudos to seat 8 for starting the re-pay. It's not like it's happening every other hour or month. It's a rarity. Especially if the dealer is really good. Imo, taking one for the (excellent) dealer like this is a way of saying thanks for all the good that they never get credit for. Sometimes sh*t happens. I tend to go to bat for, and try and protect, the better dealers in the room.

I don't think the post is useless. I think it's refreshing to read this type of thing once in awhile. Especially when there are so many A-Holes always trying to grasp that last $ any which way they can.

Especially coming off a session where a guy on my table gets kicked out for flipping off a dealer twice(2nd time was right after the dealer warned him) after the dealer was invoking the 'english only' rule. Then upon getting the boot, he tries to act like he did nothing. Whatta POS. For some, actually too many, it's still Jr High.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone asks the floor if the cameras were able to figure it out, and he says no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably meaning 'no, we didn't even check the cameras'. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

b