Strikeout question

[Kneel B4 Zod]

Strikeouts are often said to be no worse than other outs, from the hitters perspective. It looks ugly and doesn't advance runners, but there is no chance of DP.

Meanwhile, getting strikeouts is considered a key success factor for pitchers.

is this a contradiction? or is there something I'm not understanding?

[kyleb]

As a pitcher: Once the ball is in play, pitchers have very little control over where it falls. By striking batters out, they reduce their dependence on luck.

As a hitter: Strikeouts can be very bad - people who have poor secondary skills and need to bat .300 to be useful (e.g. Jeff Francoeur, Juan Pierre, etc) suffer greatly from striking out. Hitters like Adam Dunn who strike out a ridiculous amount of times isn't so bad, because the reason he strikes out is the same reason he hits a dickload of home runs. He also walks a bunch, mitigating the reason to hit for average.

[Jack of Arcades]

Picture every batter in the major leagues having more or less the same ability to get a hit when they put a ball in play. That is, if Cesar Izturis hits the ball, it's going to be a hit as often if Adam Dunn hits the ball. In this case, what would be important in evaluating hitters? 1) how much they walk 2) how much power they have, and 3) how much the strikeout, since strikeouts will have a direct correlation with their batting average.

This is more or less the picture with major league starting pitchers. It's not exact, of course, but the range in pitcher abilities to control the batting average on balls in play (BABIP) is far smaller than the hitters'. Thus, striking out many batters is a huge advantage for pitchers. For batters, however, a guy like Adam Dunn can crush the ball every time he makes contact.

All it takes it to sort the leaderboard by strikeouts for both pitchers and hitters. You look at the pitchers with the most strikeouts and all of them are damned good pitchers. Sort by strikeouts for hitters and you really couldn't find much of a relationship...

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]



All it takes it to sort the leaderboard by strikeouts for both pitchers and hitters. You look at the pitchers with the most strikeouts and all of them are damned good pitchers. Sort by strikeouts for hitters and you really couldn't find much of a relationship...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hitters vs. Pitchers

[THAY3R]

It appears that the League Leaders in Strikeouts for hitters are mostly pretty damn good.

[crockpot]

[ QUOTE ]
It appears that the League Leaders in Strikeouts for hitters are mostly pretty damn good.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's a selection bias here. for example, search for the worst-fielding shortstops over recent years and you will find a bunch of guys whose bats kept them in the lineup, like jeter and mike young. guys who field poorly and can't hit don't stick at the position. of the guys who K themselves silly, the good ones will hold down everyday jobs, and the others will find themselves working out their problems in AAA.

[LionelHutz00]

[ QUOTE ]


Picture every batter in the major leagues having more or less the same ability to get a hit when they put a ball in play. That is, if Cesar Izturis hits the ball, it's going to be a hit as often if Adam Dunn hits the ball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this true for hitters too? I know that studies show that BABIP is unpredictable for 99% of pitchers, but is it the same for hitters?

Just from looking at some career stats of a few guys, it seems like it's not true for hitters. (BABIP = (H-HR)/(AB-HR-SO), right?):
A-Rod: .327
Dunn: .294
Izturis: .289
Jose Valentin: .273
Pujols: .324

I have a feeling that these numbers aren't the result of Pujols and A-Rod being the luckiest guys in baseball.

[Jack of Arcades]

Of course it isn't. You had to ask? My post made it clear it wasn't.

[Propertarian]

It's not true for hitters.

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I have a feeling that these numbers aren't the result of Pujols and A-Rod being the luckiest guys in baseball.

[/ QUOTE ] You don't need a feeling...we can show this is not based on luck statistically...AROD has, what, 7000 PAs in his career? There is probably less than a one in one thousand the difference between Valentin and AROD in BABIP is luck.

[Paluka]

Strikeouts are a predictor of success for a pitcher, moreso than a key to success. Those aren't really the same thing. I think it is stupid that strikeouts are taken into account by Cy Young voters.